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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« on: November 07, 2006, 12:21:11 PM »
I got this in an email from a chum. Begs the obvious question to GCAers.

The Classics. Leave well alone or modify using as much modern technology as possible?



I'd guess your answers will say a lot more about you than you think...!

 ;D
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2006, 12:22:51 PM »
The restoration needs a nose job and then were talkin'.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2006, 12:26:03 PM »
I thought they could have done a better job concealing the cart path... :)

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2006, 12:36:24 PM »
After ;D.
Mr Hurricane

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2006, 12:58:12 PM »
At least Mona Lisa got sexy...

The worst restoration I've seen:
Royal Montreal Blue Course, you'll see it at the Presidents Cup

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2006, 01:01:18 PM »
At least Mona Lisa got sexy...

The worst restoration I've seen:
Royal Montreal Blue Course, you'll see it at the Presidents Cup


Philippe :  what happened to RM?  the oldest course in North America, I believe
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2006, 02:07:36 PM »
First, it's the oldest club in America..
but the course was built in 1959 (third site of the club)

What happened:

Two words: REES JONES

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2006, 03:07:36 PM »
Worst--Druid Hills GC in Atlanta.

The old H.H. Barker (?) course from 1912 was really cool in a quirky kind of way.  Cupp was supposed to "restore" the course to the classic architectural age and I think he missed the mark.  

Most of the work renovated greens and bunkers which are in fantastic condition and most of the holes stayed pretty much the same. There are alot of new roundish white bunkers all over the place but, unfortunately, where he made significant changes, they were for the worse!

Hole #6 was nestled in a real neat shelf high above the fifth fairway.  The green was too severe for modern green speads and it did need to be re-done.  However, his answer to the 165 yard par 3 that went slightly uphill to a steeply sloped back to front green, guarded by two front bunkers was to move the green and tee so that the new par 3 is a blind, uphill wedge shot (115-130 yards) between two fieldgoal posts, er trees, to the most severely tiered green on the course (again it's blind and you can't see your wedges spin 40 feet back off of the green).  Oh, and to add to this little charmer, there is a lake (hidden of course) right behind and to the left of the green!

Hole #15 was no doubt a weak hole to begin with--350 yards, usually a 3 iron off the tee and then anywhere from an 8 iron to wedge to a pretty neat green alongside a creek.  The new hole is straight uphill over wetlands and a ravine.  The forced carry is easily 230 yards (from the back 375 yard tee) and there is no where to lay up if you choose not to attempt to go over the hazard.  By nowhere to lay up, that is unless you try and wedge a lay up to one of the forward tees!  There is no other choice!!

The hazard crosses the fairway and then angles away to the golfer's left going toward the green.  If you do carry the hazard by bailing a little right across the shortest part of the ravine, you are either out of bounds or in a pine straw patch on the side of a hill.

Correctly marked the hazard is a regular water hazard. (There would be no problem keeping the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between you and the hole). Mercifully, it is usually marked lateral to allow one to drop on the fairway side of the hazard after the obligtory donation to the creek gods.  During the Dogwood Amateur the first year after the renovation, nearly one third of the field (excellent amateurs--winning score usually 17-under) plunked their tee shots in the ravine.

Once across the ravine, its a completely blind uphill second shot to a green with a pronounced false front.  I have heard that Mr. Cupp has agreed to come back and re-work this hole.

Hole #17  Originally a very strong downhill 220 yard par 3 across  some low ground to a table top green perched atop another shelf.  The green sloped left to right and a huge tree on the left of the hole would catch pulled long irons and woods.  (Although I generally never saw a tree I didn't want to chainsaw, this was far enough away from the green so as to not be overly obtrusive and yet just enough in play to mess with you).  Anything just short or right of the old green rolled down a very severe slope to an almost impossible up and down.  You couldn't bail left since if the tree didn't get you, anything left of the green was impossible to keep on the green, short and right were no good so you had to step up and smoke a 3,4 or 5 iron.

Cupp's solution was to lengthen the hole and "scoop out" the green to create a mini punch bowl.  The added length only made it harder for the average guy and the new green is now much easier to hit for the bomber.   It's longer but far easier to hit.

Hole #18  Never a strong hole it was blind and uphill off the tee.  It was about 530 so it was reachable and could produce an eagle finish.  The second was also blind (believe it or not I like blind shots usually) and you would aim at the mens grill portion of the clubhouse since the top of the club was all you could see.  Cupp decided to move the tee back to make it a longer, blind uphill tee shot.  Actually, the 18th tee is hole high and to the right of the 240 yard 17th green.  If you are on the back tee on 18, a helment may be advisable since there is absolutley nothing between the green and the tee to protect you.

18 is now largely unreachable except for the college kids.

Maybe I am jaded because I really enjoyed the old course so much.  I know they wanted more length but to go from 6500 to 6800 didn't really seem like that big of a gain.  The college kids still come each year and shoot lights out for the Dogwood tournament.  The scores have gone up a little (I think 24 under won the last Dogwood pre-renovation and the winning scores the last two years have been in the 16-18 under range).  But why add length for one event a year?

Bottom line is that a really unique old course now looks pretty much like everyone else, which sadly, is most likely what many members wanted.




Aaron Katz

Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2006, 03:13:50 PM »
I don't know what Lake Merced was like when it was a true MacKenzie, but I think a lot of the Rees Jones makeover ("renovation" is probably a kind word) is pretty bland.

Phil_the_Author

Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2006, 07:08:57 PM »
Martin,

Without intending to do so your choice of presentation highlights one of the major points of controversy in the course restoration debate; that is, to what point do you attempt to restore?
 
Very few people are aware that the Mona Lisa has a greenish tinge to it, in fact it is clearly seen in the left side photo. This is a byproduct of the FIRST attempt to protect and preserve the painting.

After Leonardo da Vinci died, the King of France, Leonardo's good friend and patron for his last few years was left the painting at the bequest of the artist. He, in turn, hung it in his BATH HOUSE where it was exposed to extremes of temperature and humidity.

An unknown and very well-intentioned artisan, in an effort to protect and preserve the painting and the wooden board it was painted on from being damaged by the humidity, put a light coat of a shellac of his own concoction on it. Within a few years this shellac reacted to the moisture and dried to a permanently consistent tinge of slight green.

Because no one then, or since, understands the chemical makeup of the shellac nor how the moisture effected it, it has never been touched again (other than soft cleanings).

And so lost forever are the subtle beauties and contrast of the vibrant colors underneath that are clearly seen in other paintings of the greatest of all the masters. The details of the background, muted in the wonderful sforza style that he alone seemed able to perfect are hidden.

It is the greatest painting of all and we are unable to fully appreciate it because of a poor attempt to preserve and protect it!

Well-meant restorations may satisfy many who had never seen the before, but if they are done wrong, what is lost is forever unattainable.

For those that are wondering, this information and much more will be found in the book "Missing Mona" that will hopefully reach a store near you in about a year.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 07:10:37 PM by Philip Young »

Ryan Crago

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2006, 07:12:58 PM »

What happened:

Two words: REES JONES

Philippe,

can you tell us why its the worst you've seen?  was it a restoration or renovation?  and did it need to be done?

curious former montrealer.

wsmorrison

Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2006, 07:46:37 PM »
I cannot offer up a "best," however, the work done at Philadelphia Country Club and Oakmont are excellent examples.  I think the Cascades work is going along very well.  A couple of courses to watch out for over the next couple of years are based on the ongoing work at Shinnecock Hills and Huntingdon Valley.

TEPaul

Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2006, 07:57:47 PM »
Martin:

That first post definitely shows that nothing can stay long in the good ole US of A without being improved upon.

TEPaul

Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2006, 08:02:33 PM »
One of the best restorations?

I might have to vote for NGLA's long term in-house restoration project spanning a couple of supers and lasting over maybe the last fifteen years or so.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2006, 08:05:48 PM »
On royal montreal.

the renovation was totally pointless...

basically, rees jones took all the dramatic shots away
all the strategy away
and all the rolling contours away...

plus visually, well to be polite, it's rees jones looking.

 

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2006, 08:06:19 PM »
Wayne,

What exactly's going on at Shinnecock?

Curious,
jeffmingay.com

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2006, 08:33:40 PM »
Best: Lookout Mountain
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2006, 11:05:36 PM »
I'll second Lookout Mountain.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best (or worst?) Restoration you ever saw?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2006, 11:49:12 AM »


Hopefully Rock Spring will be both.  The club seems to be moving in a new direction after the recently completed Ken Dye debacle.

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