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Philippe Binette

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Most important contribution by an outsider
« on: November 09, 2006, 10:26:13 AM »
What is the most important contribution in golf course architecture by an outsider.
By outsider, I mean somebody who show up one morning, made a comment on some course  and some changes where made to the course and it change the evolution of architecture...

the one I'm thinking about: Bobby Jones dad, hit his first drive on 11th at Augusta in the bunker in the middle of the blind fairway. Dad ask Bobby who the hell put a bunker there... the bunker was gone within a month.

Image if there was a blind bunker in the fairway at Augusta... Everybody in the world would see it on TV and since it's ANGC, would think that it's good
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2006, 10:32:34 AM »
Quote from: Philippe Binette on November 09, 2006, 10:26:13 AM
What is the most important contribution in golf course architecture by an outsider.
By outsider, I mean somebody who show up one morning, made a comment on some course  and some changes where made to the course and it change the evolution of architecture...

the one I'm thinking about: Bobby Jones dad, hit his first drive on 11th at Augusta in the bunker in the middle of the blind fairway. Dad ask Bobby who the hell put a bunker there... the bunker was gone within a month.

Image if there was a blind bunker in the fairway at Augusta... Everybody in the world would see it on TV and since it's ANGC, would think that it's good

Why is a blind bunker a bad thing?
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Pete Garvey

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Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2006, 10:41:22 AM »
Maybe a stretch here but nonetheless, I’ll throw it out.  Seth Raynor when C.B. MacDonald contacted his surveying company to do work at the soon to be National Golf Club (National Golf Links).  
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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2006, 02:14:36 PM »
For most people in America

1) a bunker in the middle of the fairway is bad since a ''perfect'' drive is penalized

2) blind bunker is bad since you can't aim to or away from it...

so a blind bunker in the middle of the fairway...
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2006, 02:57:23 PM »
Quote from: Philippe Binette on November 09, 2006, 02:14:36 PM
For most people in America

1) a bunker in the middle of the fairway is bad since a ''perfect'' drive is penalized

2) blind bunker is bad since you can't aim to or away from it...

so a blind bunker in the middle of the fairway...

I see. For 1st timers, I think it would be miserable, but after that, you are on your own and I would happen to see it as interesting.
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2006, 02:58:35 PM »
How about all of these owners and developers that feel the need for the 18th to be a par 5?
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Chris Cupit

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Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2006, 06:57:16 PM »
How about Tillinghast's suggestion at Pine Valley that they create a "Hell's Half Acre"?

I know that Tillinghast and Crump had been friends for a long time (so I don't know if "outsider" applies) and that Travis and MacDonald also offered some input to Crump, but the "great hazard" idea cutting across a Par 5 seems to have been a Tillie idea--one he built himself (and described as a "Sahara") on Baltusrol's seventeenth of the Lower Course in 1922.

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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2006, 08:17:00 PM »
Philippe:

The late golf writer Charles Price suggested the large bunker left of the 16th at Harbour Town to Pete Dye -- the first of Pete's many waste bunkers!  I don't know if that's really "most important" but it was an offhand comment from an outsider that led to significant change.

And of course everyone now gives Marion Hollins credit for the 16th at Cypress Point, which is a pretty good hole to hang your hat on.

I am trying to think of a good example from my own work.  As you know my associates and co-designers and clients offer lots of suggestions, but I am trying to think of a good one that came from a friend who was out for a look.
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Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2006, 08:30:59 PM »
How about the shepherd who was down a pence after hitting stones into rabbit holes and told his friend:
"Let's double the bet and play back to the pub, we will hit around the sheds and up to the edge of the road, then step inside for pint afterwards"
 ;D
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“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2006, 09:07:56 PM »
I'm too lazy to get the CB McDonald book off the bookcase but I think an outsider suggested the windmill at NGLA.
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Tim Bert

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Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2006, 11:10:21 PM »
I accidentally "shaped" a small portion of the bunker in the 14th fairway at Ballyneal when I had to play a shot from the edge and couldn't maintain my balance on the follow through.

One day this could prove to be the difference as the course finds its place amongst the greats.
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Ian Andrew

Re:Most important contribution by an outsider
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2006, 10:04:13 AM »
How about the person who got each of the famous architects interested in golf?
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