Did growing up in Ohio hurt Jack's game?

[JESII]

Phil,

I think you are being completely "Mucci-esque" with that last post.

I think his short game evolved because of a wild long game, great hand eye coordination and a love for playing around the putting green as a kid.

Not that I have any facts, but Earlthe Pearl always spoke of keeping the kid within his age bracket to breed winning. Maybe at 9 years old that means 12 and under or some such thing, but I would argue that his short game prowess evolved more from his eradic long game than anything else.

[Glenn Spencer]

If you don't count coaches and people from Cypress or Southern California, I feel like I have a pretty good grip on Tiger's junior career. Without a word of a lie, I can't remember him EVER being considered wild in any way until he was a young professional. In his first Masters, I remember distance control with his wedges being a problem, but outside of that, I honestly don't remember any of the wild talk. Maybe he got that reputation from the 94 Am final, but that was more of an aberration in my mind. Trust me though, he never fought a power shortage in any way. He hit the ball 300 at 13-14 and that is when 300 was really long. I truly think he would have won 2 or 3 Grand Slams by now if the equipment didn't tie his hands, he was that much better.

[Jim Nugent]

A.G.,

I think you're right.  Nicklaus' short game was poor in comparison to his power game which was without peer.  He was an excellent putter, particularly lagging and never missing the short ones under pressure.  He seldom missed greens.  How little he played or, as some have speculated, practiced, is not important.  His record is still the best, and if Tiger does surpass it, all the more power to him.  I am still waiting for a hard-nosed consistent competitor to push Tiger.

BTW, when Jack's long game started to decline, he did concentrate on his short game with the assistance of Phil Rogers.  It seems that he did precisely what we are taught to do, i.e. invest our practice time on those things which will yield the best return- our short game because we miss most greens.

Lou, his long game did not decline much if at all.  Even in the early 1980's he was at or near the top of the tour in GIR and overall ball striking.  Rodgers worked with him for two weeks early in 1980.  That helped him win two majors that year.  He hit 72% of greens in 1980 as I recall -- number one on the PGA -- but only made 32% of sand saves.  That ranked him nearly dead last.  

Tiger had the best long game AND short game in 2000- 2002.  That's why he tore everyone up.  Same was true the last part of this year.  We'll never know but I suspect if his father had not died or been so ill, TW would have won the Grand Slam in 2006.  Won't surprise me at all if he gets it one of the next few years.  

From what Glenn says, sounds like Jack didn't come close to playing nine months a year.  He maybe played six.  He says he regrets not practicing his short game more.  If only he had, I shudder to think how many majors he might have won.

I remember very little talk about Jack having a "bad" short game during his career; I do remember him being called a mediocre wedge and bunker player, but that was more in comparison to his long game than other players on Tour.  I'd be curious to see Tour stats from the era as to whether or not he was really "bad".

I wrote the PGA tour earlier this year.  They told me their earliest stats go back to 1980.  That year Jack won two majors, but only had 32% sand saves.  There are no overall scrambling figures from then.  I came up with a model that I think is accurate, that predicted Jack got up and down just under 54% of the time that year.  If so, that would have put him near the bottom of the pack.  I know Jack said he used his sand wedge for 95% of all his short-game shots, and Rodgers said Jack had great touch, but not many shots.  

[Phil Benedict]

Without a word of a lie, I can't remember him EVER being considered wild in any way until he was a young professional.

I have heard Tiger say that he was wild as a youth.  Maybe it was false modesty.  He specifically told Hank Haney in reference to his erratic driving that "I've always played like this."

[Glenn Spencer]

Without a word of a lie, I can't remember him EVER being considered wild in any way until he was a young professional.

I have heard Tiger say that he was wild as a youth.  Maybe it was false modesty.  He specifically told Hank Haney in reference to his erratic driving that "I've always played like this."

Ok, I stand corrected then. Maybe he was just wild compared to today. It was a lot harder to hit it straight back then. I am really perplexed by that comment though. He was never straight as an arrow or anything, but certainly straight enough and deadly accurate when he needed to be.

[Phil Benedict]

Glenn,

For whatever reason, Tiger tends to overswing with his driver.  It's strange because otherwise he's so disciplined and controlled.  He still does it today after 10 years on the tour, 50 plus wins and 12 majors.  Isn't it likely that he had the same tendency as a callow youth?

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

For whatever reason, Tiger tends to overswing with his driver.  It's strange because otherwise he's so disciplined and controlled.  He still does it today after 10 years on the tour, 50 plus wins and 12 majors.  Isn't it likely that he had the same tendency as a callow youth?

My thinking is a little different. I always felt that he knew he was the longest when he was a kid, so there was no reason to REALLY overswing the club. Now, at times, I think that he wants to show how long he STILL is and that is why he is overswinging with the driver. I can't find any other explanation, because if he didn't do this, it would be hard for him to get beat.

[Lou_Duran]

Jim,

I don't have the stats, only my recollection of closely watching Nicklaus play competitively for 20 years.  The GIR stat doesn't tell the whole story.  I do remember that in the 1980s, Nicklaus had some physical problems, perhaps a hip, and his already upright swing got even more so.  He had a power leak, though being the great athlete he was, I am sure that he still got the ball on the green with great frequency.  I am not curious enough to dig for the data, but I suspect that the change in his scoring average was greater than the change in his GIR.  It would be interesting to see GIR and average distance from the hole, something that would not be impossible to compile today.

BTW, on his % of sand saves, was he also last in number of attempts?   I just can't see Jack not paying attention to a glaring weakness which prevented him from succeeding.  The man had/has a wonderful mind.  

[James Bennett]

I think part of the balance in Jack's game came from his other passion.  I think (IIRC) that he shared this passion with Arnold.  I recall something like 'every day doing xxxxxxxx adds one day to my life, and every day golfing takes one day from my life'.  Not sure about that last part.



xxxxxxxx was of course fishing.  Lake fishing, stream fishing, deep sea marlin fishing (always a part of his trips down under to australia, IIRC).  Kind of explains some of Jack's delicate touch with the putter.



I don't know what Tiger's non-golf interest is.


James B