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Aaron Katz

Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« on: September 10, 2006, 11:05:14 PM »
The Kapalua Planation course continues to get bumped down in the magazine ratings that I've seen over the past three years.  If I recall correctly, it used to be safely within the Top 100 in Golf and Golf Digest magazines?  Why isn't it in there anymore?  Is it because of the influx of new courses like Pac Dunes?  Heck, Golf Digest has it rated below Princeville!  

Am I nuts, or is the Plantation course perfect in almost every way other than that it cannot be walked?

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2006, 11:19:31 PM »
I love the place and think they did a wonderful job routing it considering the severe site and strong tradewinds.  Not everyone's cup of tea, though.

Doug Bolls

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2006, 11:37:09 PM »
While it's not the best Hawaii has to offer - I still rank Mauna Kea Beach the best in Hawaii - Kapalua Plantation is a true test of golf in a fantastic setting.  I agree, hard to walk - but solid, challenging holes all the around.
I would guess it is dropping only because newer, more interesting, highly publicized courses grab the spotlight - our fickle nature of giving high accolades to anything new.
DB  

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2006, 12:02:39 AM »
Aaron:

Kapalua Plantation is rated #58 on the Golfweek Modern List.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2006, 01:38:13 AM »
Am I nuts, or is the Plantation course perfect in almost every way other than that it cannot be walked?

30 or so pga tour winners walk it every January.  that course more than any emphasizes the altheticism required to walk 72 holes of tournament play, albeit in paradise.  ;D

My first round I insisted on walking so our caddie drove the cart, I hoped a ride from 4 to 5 or 5 to 6, I forget.  It was a tough walk.  I rode the other 3 rounds.    

Jason McNamara

Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2006, 03:28:57 PM »
30 or so pga tour winners walk it every January.  that course more than any emphasizes the altheticism required to walk 72 holes of tournament play, albeit in paradise.  ;D

My first round I insisted on walking so our caddie drove the cart, I hoped a ride from 4 to 5 or 5 to 6, I forget.  It was a tough walk.  I rode the other 3 rounds.    


Do I remember correctly that even the pros get (approved) cart rides between a couple holes at the Mercedes?

Jason Mc.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 03:29:16 PM by Jason McNamara »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2006, 04:15:23 PM »
In my book, this is a top 100 course.
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2006, 04:33:10 PM »
Any thoughts/comments on the other Kapalua courses?

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Jordan Wall

Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2006, 06:06:56 PM »
John,

I cannot comment on the Village, plus it is a NLE (I think...isn't Faz. doing a renovation?), but I have played the other two.

The Bay course was a basic resort course, IMO, with the exception of a couple really great ocean holes.  It winds its way through cool Hawaiin trees, going up and down across some pretty hilly terrain.  Overall there is indeed some variety, but not every hole is a good or great hole, and except for the ocean holes, there are none that really jump out as being spectacular.  
The greens were fun, and as it was my first experience on Bermuda-grass, they proved, for me, very challenging.  The contours were subtle and compared to the Plantation they were relatively (*edit*) flat , but they were playable and puttable for people of all ages and abilities, which is a good feature for a resort course.
The front nine winds its way through some houses before hitting the ocean on 4 and 5, and then goes back through some houses to the clubhouse.  A couple of the holes got a bit sloppy, I thought, such as the short par-5, uphill 6th, but nonetheless the ocean holes made your mind drift otherwise.
The back nine is on the higher portion of the property and is relatively hilly.  On almost every hole there is a view of the ocean, which is very nice.  Overall the back trumps the front, IMO, design-wise, and funwise it has its little quirks too.  For me, it is fun to see the ocean whil I am playing so the fact that most hole had a great view made my time really enjoyable.  The 18th hole is a good closer, going down a little valley and then back up, to a green perched below the beautiful clubhouse.
My only real bad-talk of the Bay course is that their range balls were the weird kind with the dimples on the outside of the ball (maybe Cayman balls?).  Since the wind was strong and I was not used to that, I was a little bummed I couldnt warm up with real balls to see how the wind affected them, but it was till OK.  Golf is golf.

The Plantation is just fantastic.
The first hole has huge bunkers engraved into the hillside, with an elevated tee shot, and a huge fairway, which makes for a really inviting first tee shot.  Then the green is benched so a longer approach shot can be banked onto the green from the left, and bound towards the green--and ocean.  From the first hole on it only gets better.  
I found that I really loved the greens, and how each one seemed to blend in perfectly with the hole.  The greens all had crazy, but different contours.  One thing I really liked about the green complexes was that most of them would except a running approach, or an aerial approach, which is good given the wind is so strong up where the course is.
The par fours offer a great variety, each representing a real challenge, while at the same time being very fun to play.  If I recall there are two driveable par-4's, and one of them is about 365 yards!  The cool thing is, even though the hole is very far downhill, great design is used.  The green is divided by a huge ridge in the middle, seperating it into a big left tier and right tier.  This is a good concept as a shot approached from atop the hill still has to be carefully judged, yet the person who finds his ball bounding 100-some yards down the hill is left with a tough chip/viscious putt.  The other driveable par-4 is 100% different, as it is uphill with bunkers guarding a lay-up shot and a small green that requires precision.
Obviously, the closing holes are as good as about any closing holes, at least as far as how fun and dramatic they are.  Each hole runs down a ski slope and though they are over 1100 yards together, they can each be reached in two, and sometimes with a shorter iron on #17.  They provide to a fitting finish for a great course, IMO.

I will be playing Mauna Kea, Mauna Lani, Princeville, Poipu Bay, a Paukea next year so I will see if Kapalua is (at least IMO) the best course in Hawaii.  Without playing any of the courses mentioned above, though, I can definitely say there would have to be something pretty special and amazing to trump the Plantation course.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 09:23:33 PM by Jordan Wall »

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2006, 06:23:19 PM »
Thanks Jordan

I am headed over in a couple of weeks. I did play the Village  a few years back and enjoyed it. No detailed memory just a good overall memory. Hope it is open so I can go back.

Think  I will play the Bay given you comments sound like a nice afternoon. Maybe a bit windy but overall quite nice

Mahalo
 

 
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2006, 09:26:06 PM »
John,

I cannot comment on the Village, plus it is a NLE (I think...isn't Faz. doing a renovation?),

Jordan

The Village course is set to become NLE in April. So if you want to play it, you'd better hurry!  ;)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2006, 12:56:33 PM »
It is such a difficult thing to crack the top 100.  Only one half of one per-cent of courses make it.  Is it a worthy contender? Absolutely.  Will it make it?  Who knows
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2006, 02:18:32 PM »
It is such a difficult thing to crack the top 100.  Only one half of one per-cent of courses make it.  Is it a worthy contender? Absolutely.  Will it make it?  Who knows

Tommy

You sound as if you are in Brown's admissions department.  You aren't moonlighting by any chance?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2006, 02:26:42 PM »
Jordan,

Sounds like a sweet trip....I've been to Princeville, Kap-Plan (def. in the Brad top 25), and Poipu (almost as cool as KP), but not the others.  The only course I've played on the Big Island is the mountain course at Kona CC, which was short, quirky, and fun, and with a dropshot ocean view par 3 near the end called the "sunset hole."

My family has a timeshare down near Poipu, so I will have to get back there at some point and do the "Kauai challenge" again with Princeville, Poipu, and Kauai Lagoons, as well as check out Puakea, Kulima, and slap it around Wailua again as well.  Too many good options!!

-Brad

and it's not exactly close to Boston either....  :(
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 02:29:18 PM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jordan Wall

Re:Kapalua Plantation -- Why not a Top 100?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2006, 12:17:22 AM »
OK I am going to answer the original question.

First off Aaron, you are not crazy.
Course rakings should not be used to determine how good or bad a course is.  After playing some good, bad, and mediocre courses, I have come to this conclusion.  The truth is I have not played a lot of courses, but have played enough to draw such a conclusion IMO, or at least in my young brain.  Maybe I should have known this anyways?!?

But. back to the question.  A course is as good as one feels it is.  And, to the folk of GCA, a course like Kapalua is almost perfect in every way.  But, most people who play golf do not play for the purpose of studying or paying attention to GCA.  In most golfer's minds, it seems that a lot of aesthetics are what makes a course 'good, 'great', or 'really well done'.  Also, a course which is somewhat easy makes for fun for the average golfer.  To some golfer's this is where Kapalua loses its advantage of being good/bad versus other courses. It is a very challenging course, and to a point where high scores may cause an average golfer to get extraordinarily frustrated or upset, and that results in a loss of fun.  Thus, there is one reason Kapalua may not be in some Top-100 lists.

To give an example of what an average golfer sees and thinks about, compared to what we (as GCA lovers!) think about, I will put down the 15th hole at Kapalua.  To the average golfer, it is an ordinary golf hole with no bunkers in view, and a dogleg right.  Now, to a GCA fans like us, we see a great hole.  We see a hole that challenges the player going for it in two, and a player who lay's up.  By going for the green in two a golfer would have to cut the corner and hit the downslope with their drive, which is good risk-reward architecture.  The second shot is challenged as to get to the green a very accurate long shot is required, and any missed is punished by long and left dead, and short or right having to go up a 20 foot slope (ie--a helluva tough chip/pitch).  The golfer who lay's up has to contend with that slope when laying up, and on the third shot.  The hole makes the thinking golfer really think, and yet, to an average golfer, it is a regular dogleg like on any other hole.  Thus, what is good architecture to GCA fans can be an ordinary hole for the average golfer.

These are just two reasons off the top of my head for why Kapalua would not be in a Top-100 list.  There may be more, I do not know, but I do know one thing.  A person who is really involved with GCA will/can see totally differents things in a golf hole.  And, IMO, that is why we, as GCA fans, feel Kapalua is an easy choice for a Top-100 course when the average golfer feels it is not.