[Mike_Cirba]

Sean -

Some people are tough as I did not find it too contrived.

Jim,

Who would that be?  

Seriously, I just thought it looked out of place.  Most of the tees at PV are exceptionally well integrated both visually and functionally, and that includes most of the new tees.

A hole in one on 12?  Perhaps it's time for me to come out of the stone age and buy some new equipment after all.  

[Jim Franklin]

Mike -

You sound like my host . I am trying to get him to buy some new equipment as well. I keep saying "Let technology be your friend".

As for #14, I believe they had to elevate the tee box and in a couple of years you won't even notice it. It certainly did not have an easy path to get there.

[SPDB]

Sean -

What time did you play Sunday? We went off at 8:40 and had the left green.

I agree with you that the 14th tee box needed to be elevated in order to see the green.

Jim - The right green was in play on Saturday, but on the way out to the range at ~7, the pin was clearly cut in the right green. You are right, on Sunday the left green was in play thankfully. I had two nightmare trips through #8R on Saturday. I can never get my distance right into that hole. Invariably I distrust the caddy, and, consequently, distrust my swing. I live in that back bunker.

Some people are tough as I did not find it too contrived.

You have to understand - Mike is not satisfied with a golf course unless it is falling apart in a constant state of disrepair. His idea of "benign neglect" would make Papa Doc blush.

[david h. carroll]

Sean--I too have great difficulty with both greens at 8 and i think i had 45-50 yrds both days...first day right green, hit a good shot that went in the back left bunker after good 4wd tee shot and Sunday left green, laid back w/ 3i and then chunkola flip wedge....ugh.

As to the 18th tee and forcing a cut, I completely disagree...there's plenty of room long and left.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

Yes, the blades do not understand the meaning of the word "forgiveness".  

David,

"Forced" is probably too strong a word.  Let's just say the hole now begs for one.  

Sean,

Speaking of "forced" and begging", I love it!!  Check my new postscript!  

[SPDB]

Mike -
I don't know what to say. Now I'm blushing. I consider it a distinct honor to grace the postscript of not one, but TWO people on this site.  

[TEPaul]

david h carroll:

In my opinion, there is no question the 11th hole as routed is a Colt routed hole. In Crump's only known routing before Colt arrived there was no hole routed in this landform (except that Crump's original routing had the 15th green in the same position as the present 11th green).

The bunkering scheme on #11 is Crump's (Govan) not Colt's and the bunker placements you see in both photos are from the original construction, although Hugh Alison completely redesigned the present green from Crump's original that did not apparently work very well in play.

No bunkering on the body of this hole (other than the greenside bunkering) was ever redesigned from the original hole.

Most on here see slightly different shapes on the more modern aerial from the earlier aerial and start to assume those bunkers were redesigned. That's not true at all and the different shapes are obviously just a result of evolutionary changes over time probably due to general maintenance practices, normal bunker evolution etc.

The sand surfaces of PVGC have in the last few years been regularly maintained (sand proed and raked probably daily), and generally cleaned up from the way they used to be less than ten years ago when PVGC's bunkering was basically raked by maintenance only every so often, and generally in daily play had footprints everywhere. There are no rakes on the course and there never have been.

By the way, Crump's intention, had he lived was to move the 11th green up onto the hillside near the water tower and turn the hole into more of a dogleg left. His idea was to make the approach shot one to a very high green to mimic the approach to the hole on the front nine in the same position (#2) as #11 is on the back nine.

[wsmorrison]

One feature to notice on both photographs is the use of the treeline that juts out on the left side of the hole.  These strategic trees mean that the tee shot must be played to a position that leaves an open shot to the green and not too far left where the fairway continues on in a way that restricts a shot away from the green.

[SPDB]

Wayne,
To my eye, the trees of today cut in much more prominently. I'd say at least 50% of the fairway. Don't get me wrong, I think its a wonderful strategic feature, making the player either lay back in front of the right scrub, or try to thread a driver down the narrow chute.

Do you have any ground level shots of the 11th contemporary with your 1940 aerial? Or better still, something that dates from the early Steiniger days?

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

Sorry, I don't have any early ground photos of the 11th.

[david h. carroll]

TEPaul--very interesting that you feel the original intent/design was to create the same heroice sense of uphill shot found at #2 while in its current state, I think #11 plays a fair amount like #17 in terms of the tee shot and then angle to the green....albeit a very different green complex, but many other similarities in the holes.

[TEPaul]

"I know it's Only Fazio and I DON'T Like it."

Bill:

In fairness to Fazio, I don't believe the sand-proed bunkers is Fazio but anyway, he takes the rap on here for practically everything and anything those on here don't like so why not just heap that one on him too?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok, the "consulting architect" who has not consulted in a sensitive manner concerning the historical nature of PVGC's sand maintenance.

Better?  

Bill,

According to Sean, Tom Fazio is in a "passive consulting" role there.

I'm not sure what that means, but it sure sounds to me like a job I'd love.  

Does this mean he only does the work he is asked to do by the club?  If so, then what is the value of his consultation?

Or, does he consult and make recommendations but do so in a vacuum so nobody hears him, which renders it a passive consult?

Or, is it passive aggressive behavior, where he marches up the club leadership and says things like, "You didn't hear this from me but golly that sand would look better raked and framed with some tight grass edging, and if you want to do that I know some guys who have sandpros and you're already paying for them to sit around so perhaps if one of you gave the word that they should perhaps start their engines and drive around for a little bit then no one would be the wiser, or otherwise I'm sending them over to Pine Hill."?    

I'm not sure how an active verb like "consult" gets modified with "passive", but it also sounds like a great way to ensure the buck stops nowhere near here...unless, of course, there are plaudits to be garnered.  

[SPDB]

Redanman - I'll give it to you in 3 (and you already supported it)- bunkers in trees

Mike - Fazio's a member (as is his son). He (w/ransome) designed the short course, which is well liked. by virtue of these two things, i think he becomes the de facto consulting architect. do you think that until recently he has been pretty active?

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean,

I've heard pretty good things about the Short Course.  I'm an idiot for never having ventured over to look at it yet.  And, as I mentioned, I really like the 8th alternate green.  

I'm assuming he was probably involved with the new tees, the addition of narrowing bunkers on 9 & 18, with the bunker work on a number of hole like 10, 14, and with some of the tree removal?   Is it a stretch to think he's also involved with what I'll call the excessive maintenance of the sandy wastelands?  I'm asking because I don't know the answer but I can't imagine that he isn't?  

My joking post was that it sounds like a perfect job description that anyone would want.   After all, if you could become a "passive counsel" to your clients, you could claim all the victories and any losses could be chocked up to them not utlizing your skills and expertise effectively!  

[TEPaul]

"Ok, the "consulting architect" who has not consulted in a sensitive manner concerning the historical nature of PVGC's sand maintenance.
Better?"

No, Bill, not better.

What if the "consulting architect" or Tom Fazio or whatever else you want to call him had no input at all into how the bunker sand surfaces are maintained today vs how they used to be maintained (less raking and sandproing)?  

Tom Fazio is a golf course architect who belongs to Pine Valley and is their consulting architect. What makes you think he also runs PVGC's maintenance department?

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