[Patrick Glynn]

Greetings all,

Been reading a few posts on here about Lahinch and said I would start a new topic. Seems like most on here have played Lahinch, you are a well travelled group. But I must say I found it strange that people dont like the new 11th, and rave about the "original" 11th.

Personally, while I appreciate MacKenzie's green site for the original - I think the new 11th is a much stronger hole. We have been playing the original for the last 10 months & its a great green, but I find it the weakest of the Par 3s.

I like what Hawtree did to Lahinch. I have heard a lot of members say its a great, and I have also heard a few question his work. All I know is I enjoy the course more now.

Just wondering what everyone’s thoughts are on the subject.

Patrick

Pics:

MacKenzie's Original 11th:


New 11th from Back Tee:


New 11th from 20 yards short:


New 11th from 12th Tee Box:


New 11th from Bunker Front Right:

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Patrick, Please remind me of the distances from the tee. I like how the hole sets up.

[Andy Hughes]

But I must say I found it strange that people dont like the new 11th, and rave about the "original" 11th.

Patrick, I see you are newish here. So you might not yet know that nothing the old dead guys did can ever be improved upon by modern archies.  
That is not a comment on Lahinch's 11, as I have never been there.

[Patrick Glynn]

Tiger - the hole plays 170 yards for the tips. Members play it at about 160 normally, for a tee further right than pictured. The green is 26 yards deep & the red tees you can see are 110 from the green.

The hole normally plays into the wind, and slightly off the left. It is a tough tee shot, without being unfair IMHO. What annoys me if people saying the original 11th is significantly better, without giving the new 11th a chance.

I will put it to you that the Original is a weak hole because it rewards bad shots as well as good shots. There is a large backboard to stop shots going long & that effectively takes the bunker short left out of play. If you are 5 yards short left, the slope will kick you down onto the green. Its a "bowl" green, which in itself isnt a bad thing, but at less than 150 yards I think its too easy. The New 11th is a more demanding shot, but I find hitting the green that much more rewarding. And yes, I know difficulty does not necessarily equate to greatness but in this case I feel it is a better hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

The original hole is not as you describe.  The green is quite small, so the bit of extra room around the green which gives you a good bounce is a reasonable accommodation; it doesn't make it a bad hole.

The new hole is a good one, too, although I'm surprised no one has taken the architect to task for pandering more to the water view.

I know that the project was originally sold to the members on the grounds of safety, because the old 11th green and the 12th tee are in a very tight spot.  But then a lot of the greens recontouring has been sold as a MacKenzie "restoration" -- which is odd, because the old 11th green is one of the only two MacKenzie greens that's left, and they've moved toward taking it out.

[Patrick Glynn]

Tom - I will defer to you in matters of course design & experience but in this case I am bang on. Perhaps when you walked + played Lahinch you thought the bank in the front was a good feature. But speaking from 100+ times I have played the New 11th, and the literally countless times I played the original - the Original played far easier. In fact, only the Dell is an "easier" par on the course. I am not saying thats a design flaw per se, but I am speaking from my own personal experiences playing the hole - which I think make my opinion more than just hot air.

I will never argue that MacKenzie wasnt a great designer, but I feel the Original Green would make a super target for a 165 - 175 yard shot. Move the tee back a little & to the right and you got yourself a great Par 3 IMHO. But as you touched on, safety issues are present & the 12th coming back parallel stops that idea in its tracks.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I'm not disagreeing with you that the new hole is harder.  I just disagree that fact makes it better.

[Bob_Huntley]

Patrick,

I have played Lahinch but twice in my life. The first time we landed at Shannon, sans clubs and clothing. We borrowed same from the shop. We got out to the eighth hole and the heavens opened. I had a light sweater, street loafers and immediately was drenched. Discretion was the better part of valor, so we came in.

The next time the weather was even worse and the greens were unputtable, the goats came into the bar for relief.

So, on the one incredible course that I wanted to play, I never completed a round. I hope to correct this one day should I live long enough.


Bob

[Doug Siebert]

I played both, and I agree with you that the new 11th is more of a challenge but I like the increased number of options that the old 11th provided.  The old 11th offered a lot more options for bouncing the ball in (or, as you saying, deliberately playing long and letting the ball fall off the slope)  Yes, it can reward bad shots too but if you try to land short or fly long and it results in you being on the green, the hole is rewarding good shots and imagination.

I do agree with you that the original 11th would be an even better hole if it were possible to stretch it out a bit, since there is already a very short par 3 in the form of the Dell, though yardage hasn't mattered a whole lot with the amount of wind there has been when I've played Lahinch.

BTW, you think the Dell is the easiest par on the course?  Easier par than Klondyke???  I guess perhaps when you've played it 100 times Dell becomes easier

[Tony_Muldoon]

Patrick, what’s the story with the new hole being out of play in the winter?    Is it hoped that eventually grass will adapt to sea spray or is it a different problem?
13  03 07

15 03 07

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick,

I have played Lahinch but twice in my life. The first time we landed at Shannon, sans clubs and clothing. We borrowed same from the shop.

Bob, did showing up sans clothing cause shock, awe, boredom -- or is that the normal way of doing things over there?

[Padraig Dooley]

Patrick

I've played both holes a bit, I'd agree with Tom here, the new 11th is a harder hole but this does not make it a better hole.

The features which you describe as rewarding poor shots are good features, the backstop and slope short left can be used by the smart player, I think it's harmless that the odd time so called poor shots get a good reward but keep on hitting them and you won't be getting too many rewards.

I like the length of the old 11th as well, there is a big variety of shots to played from this length particularly into the wind, plenty of variations in spin control and trajectory needed. I don't think the new hole has as many shot options.

It's a pity there aren't more short par 3s of this calibre around. The 8th in Ballybunion would be another example.

[Patrick Glynn]

Discussion is good  

I agree that the Original 11th is a good hole, and that the New 11th being harder doesnt make it a better hole. I guess it was the thread "Appalling News From Ireland" on the changes at Lahinch that annoyed me & I felt I had to speak up for the new holes.

Tony - when Hawtree changed Lahinch he wanted to bring in more Ocean Views. Thats a big money draw for Americans & just look at how successful Old Head has been with Dramatic Views as being their main selling point... However, we seem to be fighting nature with green site. During the winter, the breakers crash up against the rocks & the salt spray causes havoc with the surfaces. Its the same on all the holes near the ocean - 3, 6, 7, 8 and 11. Anyone have any tips on how to combat this? The New 11th was only opened this weekend (1st of June) for the Presidents Prize.

[Dan Moore]

Patrick,

Thanks for the photos and welcome to the site.  

I had a lovely time in Dublin and N. Ireland two years ago and hope to make it to your area at some point

.  

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

When I first toured the golf course with the late secretary, Brud Slattery, he mentioned to me that MacKenzie's original seventh and eighth greens had been abandoned due to winter damage -- I thought it was more blowing sand than salt spray.

However, it is somewhat ironic that these greens were "restored" to even more dramatic locations than before in order to maximize the sea views ... and that they are having the same problems that the early greens did.

I think your paragraph about the club's motivations sort of contradicts the official story line about restoring MacKenzie's work; at least, I don't think the Doctor made his plans to attract Americans.

[tlavin]

The new hole is a good one, too, although I'm surprised no one has taken the architect to task for pandering more to the water view.

Tom:

"...pandering more to the water view..."  That's a good one.  Seems to me that architects have been pandering to a view of the water for a long time, in a lot of places.  Do you mean that you would have expected criticism to the effect that changing the original hole merely to get a better view should have been expected?

[Patrick Glynn]

Tom - thats because the official line, and the cold hard realities are 2 distinctly different animals!

Can I ask what you would have done if we had given you the restoration job? Its funny, in certain circles its called "restoration" and the focus on MacKenzie's work - in others its called "changes" and the focus is on making the course tougher / more modern. Depends on who you are talking to I guess!

In Brud you had probably the best guide possible & just about the best GM that has even been in the business. Great man - lived just down the road from me & I know his sons quite well, though they are closer to my father's age!

[Tom_Doak]

Terry:

People downplay the water views at Pebble Beach and Pacific Dunes every week on this site, saying the routings are more about water views than finding the best 18 holes.  I don't really think that's true, but if that is the standard for those critics, the same people should be saying the same thing about the new holes at Lahinch.  (Perhaps, though, the same people have not been to Lahinch.)

Patrick:

Brud Slattery was indeed a fine man and one of the reasons I am so protective of Lahinch.  He spent a fair bit of time with me reminiscing about MacKenzie's original work (which he'd played as a boy) and what had happened to it over time, because he was impressed that I immediately picked out the only two MacKenzie greens that were left [the ninth and eleventh].  For that reason, I would most likely have leaned more in the direction of restoration if I'd had the job.  

I've said before that I admired most of the work that has been done there -- the recontouring of the greens is excellent -- but the routing changes were made with other factors in mind, and their portrayal hasn't been completely on the level, as you alluded.  

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