[Jeff_Brauer]

I was tempted to start this topic last week, and even suggested someone do so, but no one bit......and with Tom asking for fierce bunkers, seems like theme week, so here goes:

What American course has the best placed bunkers?

What American architect generally places bunkers best in his/her designs?

I am not prepared to vote on best course yet, but will put in a surprise pick for best gca bunkerer: Steve Smyers.

[Joe Hancock]

I would suspect the answer would be the same as the one to the question "....most randomly placed bunkers..."

I will be surprised also if the answer uses any course with say, less than 40 bunkers on the course. You will get a lot of responses that use heavily bunkered courses for the "right" answer.

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

All that stuff about "randomly placed" bunkers is a bunch of malarkey.  We may throw in a few bunkers to make it LOOK like we are placing them at random, but we are placing every bunker where it is for some reason or another.

Where we differ with some other architects is that we don't place our fairway bunkers at the same distance off the tee repeatedly -- we DELIBERATELY vary them so players who hit the ball different distances will each have a challenge.  But that's a far cry from "random".

If you want somebody to just place them randomly, would you really pay for that?  

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  I'll vote for Steve as the "most loquacious" bunkerer ... he's putting so many of them out there that some of them have GOT to be in the right place, but are they all really necessary?

I believe that Jack Nicklaus would definitely vote for himself in this category.  He certainly does try very hard to place bunkers to force players to make decisions.  But, as I explained to Joe above, Jack has a fairway-bunker distance set in his mind -- even though he has as much as admitted that makes them obsolete as the equipment keeps improving.

[Tom_Doak]

As for the COURSE with the best placed bunkers, my early leader in the clubhouse is Riviera.

[Mike_Cirba]

Merion on the East Coast and Riviera on the West.

[Michael Dugger]

Cool thread, although one  suited to those who have played a lot of different golf courses

but if I could vote for something I have not played it would be Shinnecock Hills, judging from images (below courtesy of Carlyle Rood) and TV

[wsmorrison]

Of the US courses I regard highest for bunker placements, I think of:

Shinnecock Hills Golf Club

12th hole


16th green


Merion Golf Club

1st hole


5th hole


16th hole


Philadelphia Country Club

3rd hole


Indian Creek

6th hole


The Country Club, Brookline

3rd hole


18th hole

[Michael Dugger]

Wayne

looks like my post arrived a moment before yours

weird

[Bill Gayne]

Bethpage Black is the best that I've seen.

[wsmorrison]

Michael,

I just noticed your post.  Those were some excellent photos you posted and help show how incredibly well laid out the bunkers are at Shinnecock Hills.  The rugged look at their opening may be even more interesting.  We'll have some excellent construction era photographs in the book--can't post them here, I'm afraid.

[Doug Ralston]

Since certain courses like Dale Hollow have quite a few 'fall away' fairway lines, where the ball can easily run into slopes decending into deep woods, they have good defensive bunkering to cut down on this. One must design on the land given, so this is a useful and play oriented approach. The bunkers obviously cut down on search time and still penalize wayward shots.

Doug

[Sean_A]

Looking at the pix it might seem to some that it is difficult not to get some well placed bunkers in a sea of sand.  I am baffled the number of bunkers pictured.

Ciao

Sean

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

Take another look at the 6th hole at Indian Creek.  It looks like there is a sea of bunkers there but the last three bunkers are on a diagonal near the green, easily 200 yards beyond the 4 fairway bunkers.  This is a perception miscue at its greatest.  If you take the bold line over the center of what appears to be a sea of bunkers you get a turbo boost reward.  Favor the right side away from the apparent sea of bunkers and the ball kicks right reducing distance.  Brilliant stuff!

On the Merion GC 5th hole photo, you are looking at bunkers on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th holes as well.

Flynn's bunkering at Shinnecock Hills is mostly shown on the flatter holes which require man-made hazards to provide interest and strategic demands.  On the more topographic holes at Shinnecock there are far fewer bunkers.

I love the bunkering on the 3rd at Philadelphia Country Club.  They are perfectly placed.  Come to Philadelphia and you may change your views...but perhaps not.  Hope you can visit someday.

[Sean_A]

Wayne

I don't mind bunkers at all.  I like bunkers.  I even like some courses with loads of bunkers (ie Muirfield).  I only question if putting so many bunkers on a course is necessary and/or good.  Of course there are alwas exceptions, but it seems that the exceptions are becoming the rule.  I understand why bunkers are so often used.  Usually the land is not terribly interesting, but even in these cases I often see three, four, five and six bunkers in an area where one or two would probably suffice.  Whistling Straits is my personal nightmare.  It looks as though somebody is having a laugh.  After looking at 100 or so bunkers on a course it doesn't seem terribly interesting to me - just repetitive.  One well placed bunker is of far more interest to me than looking at nearly any of these collective monstrosities.  

Folks go on about great machinery and all.  Land seems to get shifted for drainage purposes.  Why isn't land shifted more often to create land form interest rather than throwing sand in holes?  I spose I am fed up with looking at bunkers.  They seem to be well over-used and I find it a bit mundane.  Much like rough really.  I am bored of these two hazards because I have been hit over the head with them for so long.  A little subtlety wouldn't go amiss.

Perhaps one day I will be lucky enough to visit Philadelphia.  It would be a wonderful experience and I am confident I could find a bunker or two I like out there.

Ciao

Sean

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,

I just noticed your post.  Those were some excellent photos you posted and help show how incredibly well laid out the bunkers are at Shinnecock Hills.  The rugged look at their opening may be even more interesting.  We'll have some excellent construction era photographs in the book--can't post them here, I'm afraid.

Wayne

I meant to say great minds think alike!!!!

The images I linked can be found at www.golfarch.com, Carlyle Rood's website, if anyone has not bookmarked it by now they should.

He has some awesome stuff in there.

On another note, I look forward to the completion of you and Tom's book, we all do
 
 

Kindest regards

[Troy Alderson]

IMHO, bunkers are placed to guide the golfer through the hole.  A few bunkers placed within the line of play is fine throughout the golf course, but very few please.  Most well placed bunkers, acting as guides through the hole, should be out of play but for the worst hit ball.  So a well placed bunker guides the golfer and keeps the golfer thinking strategically.

I have no pictures to show my point.

Troy

[Gerry B]

merion ranks up there as does one of my favorites- myopia hunt club

[Sean_Tully]

I'm partial to the 12th hole at SFGC. The tee shot gets your attention as you walk up to the tee. Back in the day it was a blind shot into the green as the mounding that is on either side of the fwy was continuous as late as 1925.

The whole course as well particuarly the 2nd,3rd,5th,haven't seen the new holes yet, and the 17th.

Tully

[wsmorrison]

Troy,

With modern equipment and big budgets, anything can be accomplished.  In the classic era or with architects that use what the land offers first, you don't need a lot of bunkers when there is dynamic topography.  As Tom Paul says, gravity golf is available.  Holes like 12 and 16 without bunkers and others with few at Merion West, plans for the second course at Eagles Mere and other topgraphic sites show that few bunkers are necessary.   But when the sites are flat or featureless, bunkers mounds, and contoured fairways add interest.  The NLE Boca Raton South, on land with no more than 10 feet of elevation change is a good example of the use of man-made features (that were constructed to look natural) to add interest and strategic implications.

Here is a hole drawing to show what I mean:

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Beyond the aforementioned and including PVGC, I really like the bunker placements on the Seaside Course at Sea Island.  Lots of "Don't hit here definition" and the bunkers flanking the fairways generally catch a just missed shot while consigning the big miss to penalty shot death.

JWK

[Adam Clayman]

Shocking Pebble has't been mentioned. But with all the recent tinkering, my guess is it's losing points as we speak.

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