The Fun Factor in Design

[Joe Hancock]

Brian - Thanks for the description.  Where is Lost Dunes?

Yea, very SW corner of Michigan in the city of Bridgman. It's about 35 Minutes from South Bend, IN and an hour and a half or so from Chicago

It's so far south that there's a lot of bermudagrass growing  in the area!

Joe

[cary lichtenstein]

Excellent topic: some comments

Augusta National: While most here would probably like to play it from the new tees used this year, for me, I'd go to the members tees or something like 6500 yards, otherwise every par 4 would be a driver, 4 wood and wedge, no fun in that.

Oakmont: While it is most probably a great est of golf and a proper U. S. Open Site, my one round there was not fun, I just don't like to hit driver, chop a sand wedge out, etc

Pebble Beach, Pine Valley, National, Cypress Point,St Andrews, Merion: Every round I had on these courses were fun.

Ditto some of the oddball courses like Tobacco Road.

More fun courses like Black Mesa, Lakota Canyon, The Quarry at Giants Ridge

Winged Ft, another great test of championship golf, but not fun, but Yale, lots of fun and a good test of golf.

Cog Hill is fun, but Medinah #3 is not.

[TEPaul]

The first time a "Fun Factor" hit me like a done of bricks was in 1999 at Mallow Golf course in Mallow Ireland. I'd just never seen a course where the ball bounced and rolled like that. A week playing that course at daybreak every day just could've been some of the most fun I've ever had on a golf course, and believe me, Mallow G.C. ain't gonna win any architectural awards or make anybody's top 100 anywhere.  

However, it sure does seem more than possible to take a course right over the top with too much firm and fast for a particular course. Check out Tom Zeni's recent thread on Sewickley G.C. I might just call up Carole Semple Thompson and ask her what she thinks about the way the course is being set up right now. Sewickley is Carole's home course and Carole who is arguably modern American golf's most successful amateur has obviously seen it all and seen them all.

It's possible but perhaps not that probable that Carole may've played more of the world's great golf courses than even Matt Ward.  

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Often times the word "fun" is tied to the self interest of the player. I often see players gushing about the inclusion of short par-4's -- which is fine -- but often left unsaid is the inability of these same players to handle the demands of a solid long par-4.

The old expression applies -- where one stands depends upon where one sits.

I can say the "fun factor" clearly applies is when courses opt not to have a wide range of penal situations be repeated over and over again. That's why, IMHO, many of the courses you find in Florida favor the same boring routine time after time after time with H20 on one side and OB with houses on the other.

Tom P:

I honored to be even mentioned in the same sentence with Ms. Thompson! I can tell you this -- I have played more of the worst courses in the world than she certainly has.

[Adam_F_Collins]

I also think that value plays into the experience of fun. A really tough track that's accessible and affordable is a lot more likely to be "fun" than the same course, a million miles from nowhere at $150 a round.

[Jason Blasberg]

Matt:

I have to second Mike's comments about the Black Course. If the superintendent and/or parks director and/or whomever dictates course set up there, didn't keep the set up like an Open and restored the normal fairway width to what should be, I'm guessing, 40-50 yards (I paced 15 fairway at under 30 yards last year!) the course would be a blast and recovery would be possible from bad angles and you wouldn't need to hit it 310 down the middle.  

The course set up today is no fun and I avoid the course for that reason, which is really shame.  I guess it's best to go end of October when the rough's not growing and you can play the leaf rule.    

Jason

[TEPaul]

"Tom P:
I honored to be even mentioned in the same sentence with Ms. Thompson! I can tell you this -- I have played more of the worst courses in the world than she certainly has."

Matthew:

Thank you. Carole Semple Thompson I've known for decades. When we were little perchance pre-pup teens we played some golf together at Gulf Stream in Fla. Back then Carole was this lithe little thing with a real "C" back swing. To date, she just may be the most enduring high level Amateur competitor on the female side of our American game's history. She is a true "Energizer Bunny", but unlike me, she is also a most humble human being and I'm sure she would be extremely grateful to be included in a group with you of those who have seen and played so many of the world's great golf courses.

Actually, Matt, I believe Carole is probably something of an old fashioned lady in her thinking compared to some of what goes on today. I doubt she's ever referred to herself as MS Thompson, but maybe I'm wrong. Her name is Carole Semple but I think she goes by the appelation of MRS Thompson.

The thread's subject is a good one, Matt.

You know who one of the biggest advocate of "Fun" golf is right now? None other than the US Open titleholder, Geoff Ogilvy!

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

I hear you loud and clear partner (and agree), but when you start down the predictable path of "if only" I can easily say the queen would be king if only she had b*lls.

I don't review courses based on what might be or should be. I base it on what is. The Black doesn't get a pass because of the way it was formerly presented for daily play.

For a good number of people I play with who are avid fans of the Black the lament is that it is becoming more and more of a slog and less and less of what it was prior to all the grooming.

No one loves the Black more than I. But the sad fact is that the "fun factor" is becoming more and more of a task that is just too much for anyone beyond the level of a ten handicap.

I mean just check out the silly extension of the back tee at #9, to name just one more "improvement" the Black could do well without.

[Jason Blasberg]

Matt:

I hear you with the length, I carry the ball about 270 and have yet to carry the bunker on 12 from the tips (mostly because I try to kill it b/c I think it's only about a 250 carry).  

When visiting a course, however, I do think you have to control for set up and condition variables.  I'm not saying those are not factors, they genuinely are, but I do think you need to look past condition and set up sometimes when it's all there in front of you just not in the best presentation.

I mean some of the fairway mowing patterns on the Black are so far off centerline it's a joke.  Visually, the dogleg on 15 keeps getting bigger each year as the left rough keeps moving toward the centerline.  To look at that hole from the tee is actually comical, yet I still think the Black course is the one of, if not the best, course tee to green that I've played.

Jason

[Dave Bourgeois]

I've mentioned it before, but The Links at Unionvale (in NY) is a good example of a fun course.  In fact this year it has raised its level of fun because they have removed the very long rough that separated some of the holes.  In the past they went for the "fescue look", and the grass was so penal that it drove many away.  

This year with the removal of some of the more offending areas the fun is back.  The course is fun to me because of the need for the player to make decisions.  There are centerline hazards, kicker mounds, blind/semi blind holes that reveal positions from one area of the fw, and also a mix of short, medium and long holes.  Couple this with the greens complexes that offer pitch, bump and run, and putting options and you can have a blast.   Having conditions where the ball can bound around is fun as well, and I expect if Unionvale firms up it would really hum.  

I guess the Fun Factor boils down to being able to use your imagination and having several options at how to go about a problem.  At the same time if one fails to execute, having the opportunity to recover and again, think around the course, raises the FF in my opinion.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Obviously, I have a great interest in this subject.  I told John Huggan in that interview posted here just the other day that it was hard to define what fun was and easier to define "not fun", but only because there are a lot of examples of fun and it's hard to remember them all.  Maybe in another 100 posts we will be close!

For me, fun is whenever your imagination is called upon to play something other than a straightforward, 165-yards-so-it-must-be-a-seven-iron shot.  

You'll find fun wherever there is enough topography to work a shot around a hazard instead of flying over it, or wherever the ground is firm enough that the ball follows the contours in the fairway and approach.  You'll find fun when the best way to get close to the hole from around the green is to aim away from the hole and use a slope.  [For that reason, I personally think that Winged Foot West can be a lot more fun than Bethpage Black.]  I think you can find fun even on a course where you're piling up a big score, as long as there are interesting shots to play along the way.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, We are on the same page and I think  pacific dunes is really fun as well as a very strong course.

[Jason Blasberg]

For me the single most fun factor is severe greens with more than just severe back to front tilt.    

While fun requires that they receive well struck and well placed approach shots two putts should be earned.  I don't think greens should be fair, just playable, so that once you learn the speeds a well struck putt can lead to a good chance to two putt.  

For example, on my first visit to Laurel Links last year the greens are severe and were running about 11.  I three putted 6 times on the front and smiled all the way around, carding a 45.  I had about 14 putts on the back after getting used to the speed and I really earned a couple of two putts.  

Having 15 footers break 3 feet is tons-o-fun for me.

In my travels to date I think the two courses tied for the wildest, most severe and IMO most fun greens are Engineers and Lost Dunes.  At both courses every green is different and every green is four or more puttable.

[Michael Moore]

Matt -

It's OK, you can come out and say it, we've got your back . . . it's fun to stand on the tee of a long par four knowing that if you uncork a great drive you will be justly rewarded. It really is.

[Tim Bert]

I think a hole where there is a good chance that a birdie can be had, for even an average golfer, yet you know the high score is always looming as well can make for a lot of fun.  These holes are often short par 4s or reachable par 5s.

Some quick examples:
Pacific Dunes #6
Ballyneal #7
Sand Hills #8, #14, #16

Then there's an all-together different kind of fun hole.  The one where it is so damn hard that you resolve yourself to double-bogey going in, but have this internal hope that you can come away with par if you play it perfectly.

Hole #5 at Pinehurst #2 comes to mind here, but I could think of others if pressed.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave B:

Good call on The Links at Union Vale -- there's a course that gets little pub but then you see another Kay design with The Links of ND at Red Mike Resort be included in the top 100 modern (Golfweek) when the reality for me is that the former is far more entertaining and design rich than the latter.

Just one thing -- what is the thinking of the 1st hole. The forced lay-up is a turnoff for me.

Jason:

You are 1000% correct on the mowing patterns at BB. The silly movement of the 15th is one of the most inane aspects when playing there. I mean, c'mon, what the hell was wrong with the original cut and the way the hole presented itself ?

Michael M:

Thanks for having my back -- I've heard that before from a few select others here on GCA and I'm still wincing from the sharp stab in my back.

Yes, I do like a good long par-4 but one that calls upon ball movement or other such elements that go beyond sheer length off the tee.

Appreciate you looking after me.

Tom D:

To use a baseball metaphor -- some courses are like Nolan Ryan -- superb fastball and impossible to bit curve ball. That's about the limit of his stuff. Others are more complete pitchers and provide a wider array of pitches and speeds. To me a superior "fun course" is one that follows the second aspect I just mentioned.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

I was waiting to hear someone say that a really hard hole like that  is an essential part of the fun mix.   Who knows what the exact "right" number is, but off the top of my head, it ought to be a low number, about one in each nine holes, and certainly no more than equal to the number of easy birdie holes, and probably less.

And the type of "hard" is important, as in it should be "memorable" hard, like the ability to completely putt of the 5th green at NO. 2, or any false front you have to worry about (or false side, or back) but not impossible hard, like a 270 carry when your carry is only 220 yards.......

[Dave Bourgeois]

Matt,

I'm not a big fan of the forced lay-up either, and I have to believe that the placement of the clubhouse and parking lot coupled with the wetlands did that.  It does add some quirkiness to the design, but I do not like that it comes on the 1st hole.

The rest of the course is a blast, and offers a mid handicapper like me lots of enjoyment that is not easily found in met NY public golf.

One question for you would be how you would compare Balleyowen with the The Links at Unionvale?  I find Unionvale has more variety, but did really like the first four holes at Balley.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Ballyowen is the better layout IMHO. You see I find Union Vale flies under the radar for what Stephen Kay and his partner Doug have done.

You have all these folks gushing about Links of ND because of the remoteness factor but when you add up the totality of what you have at Union Vale the situation for me is night and day difference.

Part of the problem with Union Vale is the out of the way location for many people.

I can easily make a case that Union Vale would be a fine candidate for top ten public in the Empire State even with the dog first hole forced lay-up.

In the Ballyowen case keep this in mind -- you can't be too wild at the Jersey layout and succeed. The approaches are also a tad more demanding because a number of the targets are above you and in many cases better protected either by mounding, bunkers or elevation.

[Jason Blasberg]

Ballyowen is the better layout IMHO.

Matt:

I haven't played Ballyowen in about 7 years but it was reasonably high on the fun chart the couple of times I played it, I remember bombing a drive and hitting a low iron for my second (like 8 or 9) to the par 5 10th (obviously severely down wind) and I made 6.

I think I short sided myself and then 3 jacked it.

I never could get oriented on 18 tee and I really love the bite off what you can chew tee shot on #2.

I think Ballyowen was my first genuine introduction to a manufactured links style course.  I'd have to go back for a recent look but I'd say it tops LI National and sits behind Tallgrass and Laurel Links (both tied for the best manufactured links style courses I've seen (I'm not counting Whistling Straights because I'm not sure what category it's in, but it certainly is manufactured)).

Jason

[Jim Nugent]

Does anyone feel like rating courses on the "fun factor?"  Perhaps could use something like a Doak scale, 1 to 10.  Maybe a topic for a book, Matt, or an article in your magazine?  

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

You raise a good point on providing a new mechanism in course evaluations -- the highlighting of the "fun" factor. Keep this in mind -- fun is a very elastic word and hard to pinpoint for all types. I can remember skiing last winter in Park City and what I thought was "fun" was really a few steps beyond the bunny slope range for the other more proficient skiiers in my group.

Nonetheless, the idea of "fun" should certainly be considered a top priority because there needs to be some sort of way to assess the experience that can tie together all the folks playing such courses. Clearly, the elastic element is part of the fun process because you need to keep the attention and desire of all types of players. Sounds easy but is rarely delivered.

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