[Tim Leahy]

I stumbled across a new sports cable channel, the Altitude network and there was a great show on called "Destination Travel and Golf" that I had not seen before. They profiled a resort in Texas outside of Austin called Horseshoe Bay. It looked great, but I have no idea what the weather is like in that part of Texas. If I was considering a weeks vacation, what would be the best times of the year to go? How about off season deals and weather? Anybody out there been to this place or others nearby and can reccomend a good time to visit?

[Bill_McBride]

Tim, I was at Barton Creek, closer to Austin, in early May and it rained every day.  

Remember Palm Springs (I'm sorry we didn't have a chance to chat there)?  Austin is hot and humid enough in the summer that the effective temp is not far off.

Winter's a bit nippy but it could be nice.

But the shoulder seasons are great.

The good news is the Hill Country of Texas is wonderful, very down home and friendly, and the Horseshoe Bay courses are supposed to be very solid.  If you like boating on man-made lakes, that's pretty good too.  During our trip we spent some time putt-putting around Horseshoe Bay's waterfront side - lots of BIG houses and BIG boats.

The Palmer Course at Barton Creek is close by and very fun to play - if you make the forced carries!  

I could but my wife couldn't.  

[Lou_Duran]

A week is probably too long.  Better to go to fly in and out of Austin and spend 4 days and 3 nights there, and 3 and 3 at Horseshoe Bay.  Fall time is best weatherwise, and maybe with football season going on, there will be less pressure on the golf courses (in addition to a resort, it is a large, active retirement community).

Depending on what you are accustomed to, the accomodations are very acceptable to outright superb.  The golf is not real compelling, though there is quite a bit of elevation change and quirk.  From the backtees, the two newest courses, Ram Rock and Applerock, are beastly.  The courses are rustic with lots of native areas and water hazards affecting play.  The original course Slick Rock (I think) is a kinder, more serviceable members course.

I personally prefer the Barton Creek courses though I haven't played the C & C course there (which is the least regarded of the four, at least in the rankings and by volume of play).  Bill McBride just played it and raved about it.  I understand that the course has closed or will be closed in the not too distant future for renovations (I don't know if C & C are involved).  The two Fazio courses there have always drawn rave reviews, typically included in the top 10 Texas courses (but what do raters know?).

My favorites in the Austin area are Spanish Oaks (Bobby Weed, though it has been "softened" since I've played it) and Austin Golf Club (C&C).  Both are not too far from Horseshoe Bay, are private, and a bit restrictive with access.  Fazio also has a private course next door to HSB, Escondido, which I haven't played, but is supposed to be very good.  They are selling lots so it may not be as difficult to get on.

[Matt_Cohn]

Ram Rock and Apple Rock (?) are both pretty hard. They're not fancy or sophisticated; just solid, fairly difficult golf courses. It's sort of the opposite of a Fazio. You go there to play the game, and because you're the kind of person who says "Just give me a golf course, and I'll do the rest myself and be happy."

The Ram Rock course is especially hard. I went there for a couple of days with my college team and won all the money shooting one over par, I think.

I would put in maybe 2-3 days there. It's a good spot. I liked it.

[mike_beene]

Beautiful part of the world.I wouldn't go in July or August although a little breeze makes it bearable.Fall or Sring best bet,although winter is mild for the most part.

[Tim Leahy]

Thanks for the responses, but I am a native Californian and don't know what fall is. Can you still get comfortable weather, say in the 70's or 80's in October in the Austin area. How about winds? In Cali we only have two kinds of weather, sunny and hot or rain.

[erichunter]

70s & 80s is the norm in October, so don't worry about that.  I have only played the Ram Rock.  The others have described the courses well.  From the tips it is a long course.  A couple holes have very tight dog legs.  It is not cheap.  My wife & I stayed at the hotel for a long weekend last Memorial Day weekend and it was $185.  At that price, I would say Barton Creek is a better value plus you are closer to town for nightlife options.  But if you are into boating/water-skiing, Horshoe Bay might be preferable.  The resort is still very much in the 1970s style.

Lou,
I have played Spanish Oaks since it re-opened and there is not much difference.  They did clear some underbrush but in areas that rarely come into play.  

[MarkT]

A lot of Texas celebrities retired to the Horseshoe Bay area (Darrel Royal, one of the founders of AOL, etc). Other than that, most people that have houses there are weekenders.

RamRock is tough, as in extremely tough. Story goes, when Ben Crenshaw was in high school, he shot like 6 under on AppleRock. When asked if he had a great round he replied "No, the course is just easy". This apparenly offended the owner and RamRock was born. It's been several years since I last played there but the conditions are normally firm and fast.

Temperature in the summers are guaranteed to be in the 90's and 100's. Humidity is not bad (30% to 40%). Spring is nice weather except you'll never know if it's going to rain. September through October you'll be looking at 80's and 90's most days. November the temperaure drops and from Nov thru March, you can have just about every weather pattern possible. I was playing in Austin in January when it was 82 degrees. It was 49 when we finished our round. But for the most part, the weather in Central Texas is dry and warm. Not too many days of freezing. It's just a crap shoot in the winter and spring.

I wouldn't spend more than 3 or 4 days at Horseshoe Bay unless you are planning to do more than golf. San Antonio is only an hour away and Corpus Christi a couple of more. Hill country area has lots of "quaint" little towns with festivals, antique shops, etc. if you're into that kind of stuff.

[Lou_Duran]

Mark,

The story about Crenshaw as you tell it is a myth.  Ram Rock predates Applerock.  Maybe it was Slick Rock, the first course and by far the friendliest of the three, where Ben shot his score.

Ram Rock is the hardest course under 7,000 yards I've ever played.  It was designed to be the most difficult course in Texas, though it may no longer hold that (dis)honor.  From the next set of tees, around 6,500 yards, it is much more fun.

BTW, I think that Darrel Royal now lives at Steiner Ranch (?) and plays golf very frequently at the University of Texas Golf Club.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I echo what Lou and Matt C have said. Ram Rock is not a gem from a design standpoint -- but it's quite honest and really shows its teeth -- the course doesn't suffer fools that well. I really like the course because it's bare bones in-your-face type holes. No tricks or gimmicks. Like a good Texan who enjoys his beef -- Ram Rock will never be confused with quiche!

If you have time and a bit of connections when in the greater Austin area head north to the Georgetown area and see if you can access Cimmaron Hills -- the Nicklaus private layout is well done and often flies under the radar screen.

[MarkT]

Lou,
You may very well be right. To be honest, I didn't remember which course Crenshaw said that about. I did not know RamRock predates AppleRock. And I'm not even sure it's a true story, just what I was told by a member.

As for DKR not living there, I was unaware of that as most of his football buddies still live there (Spike Dykes, T Jones, etc) as far as I know.

Like a good Texan who enjoys his beef -- Ram Rock will never be confused with quiche!

Good description!

[Lou_Duran]

Mark,

Come to think of it, it was the AD, Mr. Dodds (?, sp), who was pointed out to me during my visit to the UoTGC, and not Mr. Royal.  The development surrounding the course is becoming an enclave for UoT alumni and high profile folks.  The course is very good, though not one of my favorites.

BTW, I think I remember seeing something on TV about Royal and Barton Creek.  I think he actually lives there, though could very well have a place at HSB as well.  I am sure that he plays pretty much wherever he wants to.

Matt,

An acquaintance who was once the best junior player in Texas, a Hogan Tour winner, and a contestant in the final stage of the PGA Tour qualifier has played Ram Rock on several occasions.  He typically shot right at par there, and had to play away from his strength (prodigious length, and pretty straight).  While the course may not look like it, it is target golf which punishes misses very severely.  Get the wind blowing with firm ground, and the boundaries just aren't sufficient.

Unfortunately, due to the platting of lots, a good number which may never be built on, there is little that can be done to remove the OB stakes and provide a bit more room.  Some of the native areas have been cleaned up somewhat, though for some reason, the owner doesn't want to remove the ornamental rock used as ground cover in the proximity of play throughout parts of the course.

From my standpoint, both Ram and Applerock suffer from being too hard just for the sake of being hard.  Ram Rock in particular is shunned by many of the members.  The whole resort is quite good and, in my opinion, would be much better if they toned down the rough edges and brought in someone who could add strategy and options at the expense of just plain mean, hard.

   

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

I agree with you on a number of points but remember this -- if Ram Rock were a separate stand-alone club then the issue of it being very demanding would be an issue.

Given the fact that there are multiple layouts one does have an option on where you play.

Let me also point out that many times people bitch and moan about a course (members generally) but they are usually also playing back tees when they don't have enough game / firepower to merit such a stretch on their limited dexterity.

Lou -- keep this in mind -- a course can be tough but also be honest. I mean -- that it will make you play first rate shots but if you pull them off there will be a reward. I have played other courses that go beyond tough but fair and are simply nasty and offer little encouragement no matter how well played the shot is. Ram Rock is demanding but not unfair in the manner by which it presents itself.

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

HSB's owner, who is not a serious golfer at all, says the same thing about Ram Rock being one of three choices, all with different levels of difficulty.  Though under 7,000 yards, few people play Ram Rock from the back tees.  The problem is not about back-breaking length, rather, marginally off shots, the type even single digit handicappers hit as often as not, are commonly punished harshly.  Golf is not a game of perfect, but Ram Rock seems to require it.   Believe me, I've seen Slick Rock and Applerock booked for hours and Ram Rock with no wait.  The market speaketh.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

How bout this -- maybe the people who play the other courses don't have the game to play what it requires. The same holds true for particurlar LI facility.

You might know it -- the name is Bethpage. Nothing wrong with the Black IMHO or with Ram Rock.

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

I get your drift.  But to put Ram Rock and The Black in the same sentence is paramount to blasphemy,

BTW, I found The Black stern but highly playable and enjoyable.  In contrast, WF-W is stern, playable in terms of not losing balls, but too gruelling to be enjoyable.  If The Black had the complicated greens many seem to criticize it for lacking, it would probably be much less enjoyable.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

I never equated a parity between BB and RR. I simply mentioned them because both facilities have multiple courses. If people wish to play the toughest of the layouts at their respective location they have that option with BB and RR respectively.

What I'm still trying to understand is how RR is thought of as being too hard or too uinforgiving. I didn't see that. No doubt I might have missed something others who have played the course many times over are able to articulate.

Given the nature of other courses with forced carries or unduly narrow landing areas -- RR is quite fair and will reward accordingly when the level of execution is achieved. My brother lives in the area near Galveston and the next time I visit I'll besure to return to the greater Austin area and play Ram Rock.

Lou -- one last question -- have you played Cimmaron Hills and what are your comments if you have? Thanks ...

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

I know you didn't imply that The Black and Ram Rock are in the same class.  In my opinion, the close to the lines of play OB boundaries, native areas, and ornamental rock used as ground cover keep RR from being the "honest" test that you see it to be.  The Black has its native areas as well, but they generally impose a half to a one stroke penalty on the errant shot.  At RR, a windy site, it is often stroke and distance.

I played Cimmaron Hills about a year after it opened, and I liked it a lot.  It has an interest sequence of holes, nice variety, some outstanding, challenging par 4s, and a good set of par 3s.  As a development course, it has a cart golf routing and they really could have done a lot more grubbing/rock removal inside the hole corridors.  Unfortunately, ruining a sand wedge from just a few feet outside of the fairway, and nearly sustaining a serious hand and risk injury left me with a less than highly favorable impression.  I may try to play it again this fall.

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