US Open playoff question.....

[JohnV]

Do they all get their own special little marker so we can keep them all identified?  Officials shouldn't be marking balls for players.  Keep making it more complicated, Glenn.  I know, they

Why, if you are going to have an official mark every ball, not have the official with the group inform the players about what the guys in front made?  Simplifies everything.  The player could have asked and should have asked, nobody would have denied him the information.  His own fault, just like someone who doesn't watch the scoreboard in a tournament.

Like I said, you have your opinion, I have mine and never the twain shall meet.

[Glenn Spencer]

Do they all get their own special little marker so we can keep them all identified?  Officials shouldn't be marking balls for players.  Keep making it more complicated, Glenn.  I know, they

Why, if you are going to have an official mark every ball, not have the official with the group inform the players about what the guys in front made?  Simplifies everything.  The player could have asked and should have asked, nobody would have denied him the information.  His own fault, just like someone who doesn't watch the scoreboard in a tournament.

Like I said, you have your opinion, I have mine and never the twain shall meet.

Oh, sure it simplifies everything. Just what an official wants, simplification. You don't get it, I guess, if you tell the people in the group behind what the people in front of them made, it is not equitable. How do you not see that? I was standing on the tee when the official gave out all the information. He never said, just ask me if you want to know what someone made. How is it the players fault for not asking? If the official is going to run an improper playoff, it should be his responsibility to make the players aware of their options, not the players. The playoff I saw was an embarrassment and the proper attention to the players was not paid. The official in charge should have been sick to his stomach, but of course he didn't even know better. I would imagine that he would just say that it was the players fault for trying to make 4, when all he needed was 5, too bad he made a 6 and didn't go on, but at least nobody had to work too hard.

[JohnV]

Glenn, I wasn't there, but at every one of these I've seen (probably 15 at this point), there is a person who has a large scoreboard setup on the back of a cart where every score gets recorded.  It is sitting right by the green.  Any player can look at it when he gets around the green.  Any player can ask any official what scores were made.  The players I've been around haven't had to be told that.  If they were unsure, they would ask if they could be told and they were.  But, I guess we need to hold some peoples hands a little more.

Enough.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn, I wasn't there, but at every one of these I've seen (probably 15 at this point), there is a person who has a large scoreboard setup on the back of a cart where every score gets recorded.  It is sitting right by the green.  Any player can look at it when he gets around the green.  Any player can ask any official what scores were made.  The players I've been around haven't had to be told that.  If they were unsure, they would ask if they could be told and they were.  But, I guess we need to hold some peoples hands a little more.

Enough.

It is too late, when you get to the green!!!! Maybe the ones you have been involved with have made the best effort they can, the ones that I have seen, 5 or so, haven't. How is this not done the same every time. I don't care what the Pacific Northwest Golf Association or whatever does, but the USGA should have rules in place. You can't take the easy way out when a spot in the Masters is on the line. Getting to the green and seeing 4 7's on the scoreboard is a lot different than watching it go on, I guess you are not willing to accept that. It is quite similar to the BCS, just because a lot of important men tell you that it is a fair way of deciding a champion, that doesn't mean that it is. John, don't forget that it is a playoff and sudden death should never come without you knowing what you need to do.

[Glenn Spencer]

The guy didn't know he needed a bogey?  Didn't he ask someone what score was needed?  The scores for the players who have already played are usually posted right by the green.  We had a situation at Stanwich where we only had to eliminate one player.  A guy in the first group made double.  Everyone behind him figured it out real quick and made pars or bogies.

And how, if there are 15 guys on a hole are the players supposed to keep track of what they need?  If I'm the first or even the 10th to hole out how do I know what the ones who are still going to hole out are going to do?

Now, if I'm in the first group and I've got a putt that I might think I have to make, but the guy in the group behind me just hit it OB, I might not know it.  But, likewise, if I make birdie, I'm putting the pressure on all the others behind me.

Using your logic, the USGA should just start all 156 guys on Thursday at the US Open in the same group and continue that way the rest of the week.

The Stanwich  situation is a great example of being unfair. If I am playing in the group of a guy that made double, I can assume along the way that par or bogey would get me in because he is struggling, but the officials at Stanwich allowed the guys in back to KNOW that all they needed was a bogey, you are citing this as a positive, when it is a clear negative to the guy that is finished. He has to show his hand before he is even called.

[TEPaul]

Glenn:

There is obviously something very fundamental you need to understand about the two different formats of golf--eg MATCH play vs STROKE play.

In match play golf it is the absolute "right" within the context and priniciples of MATCH PLAY golf that a "player" be able to know the STATE of his match at any point against his "opponent".

The same principle most certainly does not exist in stroke play golf, which include stroke play playoffs for match play. You need to appreciate what the entirely different "principles" between the two formats really mean, and to what extent they go.

These days, when information dispersion is far more available than it has ever been before some people assume that a "competitor" in stroke play---and very much including a STROKE play playoff for MATCH play has every right under the principles of golf to know the state of his competition against all other stroke play competitors.

Such a concept and "right" simply does not exist in either the principles of stroke play golf or in the Rules of Golf as they relate to STROKE play golf.

It will always be that way and it will always be fundamentally different from MATCH play golf where under the principles of the Rules of Golf and the actual Rules of Golf the "player" always has a RIGHT to know the state of his match against his "opponent". Neither the wording nor the concept of the "opponent" exists in stroke play golf and that's why those that stroke play competitors play against in STROKE play are called "fellow competitors" and not "opponents".

I realize you will probably not accept this important distinction between the two formats of golf and argue that it shouldn't be this way, and that all stroke play "competitors" have a right to know how they stand against all their "fellow competitors", and if they don't there is something UNFAIR about it, but that's the way it's always been and the way it always will be as it relates to a stroke play.

Basically a stroke play "competitor" has no such "right" under the principles of the Rules of Golf or the Rules themselves as he most certainly does have that "right" and always has had in match play golf.  

I realize that what some think just must be the essence of some things about golf just aren't. I recall it sure was a shock to me as well when I found out a few of those things. I guess that's just another thing about golf that's so unique. It's almost never exactly what you think it should be.  

[Glenn Spencer]

TEPaul,

Thank you for your response. I now understand how the USGA feels that it is OK to do it this way. A stroke-play playoff does fall into the stroke-play category you would think. I am not someone that can't have their mind changed when told properly. I definitely see what you are saying and it now makes some sense to me. However and I sure you knew that was coming, I still think that sudden-death is where the issue changes. If it was a 3-hole like in the PGA, I could see this taking place and accept it, but in sudden-death it is simply not equitable. I truly believe that this practice is done to make it easier on everyone as John said and that is where my problem lies. The fairness of a competition should never be sacrificed for time or labor. If you had the choice and the logistics were not an issue, how would you run a 9 for 3 playoff? It is more fun and fair for everyone involved if everyone goes at the same time. You make the point that a stroke-play competitor does not have the right to know what is going on and that is true, but it does not mean that the playoff has to be run that way. The US Am is played in threesomes, but John said a playoff would have a foursome at least, so allowances are already being made, why not keep the thing as fair as possible to everyone involved. There can't be anyone else on the golf course, what is the harm? The other group can't go anywhere until everyone is finished, what is the harm?