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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Deepdale update
« on: May 10, 2006, 06:31:45 PM »
In an apparent public relations move concerning the pending eminent domain situation, the club now has a website setting forth details from their point of view:

www.deepdalegolfclub.com

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2006, 09:49:07 PM »
The Daily Show with Jon Stewart did a hilarious send-up on the Deepdale issue two nights ago.  How the "poor" residents were being denied access to golf.  They also pointed out that there were some 30 other courses within 20 miles.  I wish I'd Tivo'd it.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2006, 10:34:36 PM »
   I would hardly call the Stewart piece pro Deepdale.  It was very funny, poking fun at both sides.  The Deepdale membership were hardly portayed as "victims."  I would say that the gist of the bit was that these are a bunch of rich assholes squabbling with one another, and everyone else should sit back and enjoy the show.

Jim Nugent

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2006, 11:47:21 PM »
  I would hardly call the Stewart piece pro Deepdale.  It was very funny, poking fun at both sides.  The Deepdale membership were hardly portayed as "victims."  I would say that the gist of the bit was that these are a bunch of rich assholes squabbling with one another, and everyone else should sit back and enjoy the show.

Jim, if that was the point of the show, I think Stewart greatly missed the boat.  No matter who the combatants are, the issue goes to the heart of private property and the future of golf clubs in the U.S.  Actually, probably not just golf: courses aren't the only thing that might "enhance" a community's real estate values.  If Deepdale loses, look for a tidal wave of takings.    

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 11:52:52 PM »
Jim

If Deepdale loses, look for a tidal wave of state legislation limiting eminent domain for roads, schools, etc and NOT for  economic development. This type of legislation has already been enacted in many states and is on the agenda in many others, including PA. This is the result of The Supremes recent decision upholding a taking for economic development absent state legislation.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jim Nugent

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 12:15:35 AM »
Jim

If Deepdale loses, look for a tidal wave of state legislation limiting eminent domain for roads, schools, etc and NOT for  economic development. This type of legislation has already been enacted in many states and is on the agenda in many others, including PA. This is the result of The Supremes recent decision upholding a taking for economic development absent state legislation.

Steve

Sounds good to me!

ForkaB

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2006, 12:27:38 AM »
I'll give the Deepdale guys credit.  They have the Daily Show clip on their website.  It is hilarious. :)

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 12:55:25 AM »
  I would hardly call the Stewart piece pro Deepdale.  It was very funny, poking fun at both sides.  The Deepdale membership were hardly portayed as "victims."  I would say that the gist of the bit was that these are a bunch of rich assholes squabbling with one another, and everyone else should sit back and enjoy the show.

Jim, if that was the point of the show, I think Stewart greatly missed the boat.      

Jim, I think you might be missing the point of the Daily Show. Their updates on Iraq are titled Messo' potamia. Surely if one can get away with that on TV, the issue over Deepdale, especially considering the characters involved, is worth a chuckle. The fact their Home Page features shots of people enjoying a carefree day on the links alongside a menu that includes "Litigation" as one of its choices is also ironic to say the least... That said, if MIT or Harvard think they're going to erect another life sciences lab on my property, you'll find me at the front gate with a shotgun...  ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 01:06:05 AM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 07:21:20 AM »
   I'm not suggesting that I agree with the condemnation proceedings; I don't.  I'm just pointing out that Stewart was poking fun at both sides.  Unlike Iraq, he wasn't taking sides here.  He was simply amused at all the rich people fighting with each other.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 07:41:59 AM »
Sports Illustrated had an article on Deepdale this week. The Mayor has not filed any lawsuit, and acknowledges that Deepdale would be due "fair market value." He also acknowledges that The Town cannot pay the $100 million that the club thinks it is worth. It was assesed by Nassau County for $13 mm for taxes. The Mayor believe the value is in between.

I am sticking with my opinion that this is politics and will never see a courtroom. However, I do like that Deepdale has a sense of humor and put that Daily Show clip up on their website.

There is also a great mention in SI about how one of the Grace kid's held out from selling his house (the other three did) to Deepdale when it moved to the Grace estate. The Grace kid would harrass his neighbors by having swimsuit models pose in his backyard opposite a tee. There is a great picture in the article of a golfer swinging a club with swimsuit models in the background, and the golfer sort of looks like a young Tom Paul! ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 07:43:23 AM by Mike Sweeney »

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 08:47:19 AM »


Maybe this is an area that Mr. Stewart is more qualified to take a side :)  Not sure why it is funny when "rich people fight each other" when one side is clearly wrong.  What if it wasn't rich guys?  What if Deepdale were an exclusionary club?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 09:03:51 AM »
What if Deepdale was a 9 hole muni leased by the city for the benefit of its residents and the landowner was offered mucho bucks by a real estate developer because the golf course happened to be on oceanfront property in Hawaii? Would eminent domain be for the "public good" then to keep the course for the benefit of the city residents and the general public?

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 09:16:26 AM »
Hammy:  you hit on the point here.  Wealth is just the distraction in this case.  It's the man bites dog here.

We are drawn like a mosquitos to a bug zapper any time a chance to bash the rich comes along.  

And the lawyers too, so here goes.

The recent case in New London was about a town and an area that is still trying to get back on its feet after all the submarine/defense contractors left town.

Deepdale and Steve's example are about who controls a golf course. Eminent domain has no practical purpose in either of those situations. Oh some tricky lawyer figured out how to abuse the American system so good for him.

Now if the Mayor wanted to put in something that was good for his town and the surrounding area such as a school or similar noble cause, then I would back him.

As such, it is simply control over a golf course that I have never played and I have never been told that it is anything special.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 09:18:30 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Jim Nugent

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 09:58:51 AM »
What if Deepdale was a 9 hole muni leased by the city for the benefit of its residents and the landowner was offered mucho bucks by a real estate developer because the golf course happened to be on oceanfront property in Hawaii? Would eminent domain be for the "public good" then to keep the course for the benefit of the city residents and the general public?



My answer is "no."  In your example the city does not own the property.  They lease it.  Their rights should be governed by the terms of the lease, just like tenants everywhere.  

The owner has every right to sell his property.  Perhaps the city can buy it, if they match or exceed the developer's offer.  Perhaps they should have tried to buy it before.

Using eminent domain comes down to: "we want it, so we will take it at the price we set."  The example you give is ironic, though.  If the developer carries through his plan, he will probably greatly increase the tax base for the city.  That is exactly the excuse developers use to convince other cities to apply eminent domain.  

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 10:02:00 AM »
Shiv; you really have been drinking the kool aid.  It is human nature to root for the underdog.  Bashing the rich and laughing at their foibles has been going on forever and is largely an expression of envy.  But if you believe that the history of american politics, including judicial history, is reflective of a consistent prejudice against the wealthy  I respectfully suggest that you are not using the analytical skills which I respect in your approach to many other topics.                                                                          
  One other point on this discussion which is becoming further off topic with each post;  it is logical and consistent that government take special care to protect the disadvantaged simply because they are least capable of protecting themselves. Those at the top rung of society have the means and a system which permits them to assert their interests.  For example, they can afford to hire people like us.  However those at the lower end of society need assistance to level the playing field.  Hence much of the "safety net" and civil rights legislation.  One may argue that government should not try to level the field at all or provide minimum protections, and there we must agree to disagree.  As to particular pieces of legislation designed to further this overriding principle, there has been both good and bad and in a different forum or over a drink they are subject to debate.  You might be surprised to find out how flexible a person who is not afraid of the "L" word can be in approaching problems of this type.  That is the underlying premise of this system; free speech and fair debate leads to greater knowledge and better more informed decisions.  At least that's a nice theory.

We won't settle the liberal versus conservative idealogy debate here nor should we try. This is a forum to discuss golf course architecture.   For what its worth, I think the extension of the eminent domain doctrine is horrendous and a an error in constitutional interpretation which will be corrected with time.  I also find it ironic that for the most part, those benefitting from these takings are usually on the conservative side of the spectrum.  But my main purpose in posting is to dispute what I view as your distorted historical focus even though we are on the same side of this issue.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 10:14:50 AM »
You might be surprised to find out how flexible a person who is not afraid of the "L" word can be in approaching problems of this type.  That is the underlying premise of this system; free speech and fair debate leads to greater knowledge and better more informed decisions.  At least that's a nice theory.


Shelly,

I actually want to flush out your thoughts on this topic in a few weeks. Not relevant for today's discussion.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2006, 10:27:43 AM »


that people benefitting from these takings can hardly be called "generally conservative".  They are the people most connected by the political power structure in the area.  Do you really think New York City Developers, who can't get anything done without help are conservative?

Doesn't the law say that the "people benefitting" from eminent domain are the general public in the area? Isn't that the measurement rather than how much a developer makes and what his politics may be?


Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2006, 10:52:12 AM »
[quote ]

Maybe this is an area that Mr. Stewart is more qualified to take a side :)  Not sure why it is funny when "rich people fight each other" when one side is clearly wrong.  What if it wasn't rich guys?  What if Deepdale were an exclusionary club?
Quote

If John Stewart was taking a "side" in the Iraq war he'd be backing the insurgency. He's merely lampooning the ineptitude with which the war is being fought.

As far as the Deepdale issue goes, the town is so far from achieving it's stated 'goal' (dubious legal precedent, not enough funds to buy the course at fair market value) you have to wonder is there isn't some ulterior motive here. If I lived in the town I would not be happy if the club pursued this through the courts-particularly if I was a non-golfer.
Next!

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 11:08:30 AM »
If, as reported by the Institute for Justice, ..."state and local governments in the U.S. have threatened to take more than 10,000 pieces of property(1998 thru 2003) and give them to well-connected developers", it's probably a good thing that such a high profile taking is in the offing. The Supremes may be onto something, it might turn into the death knell for eminent domain abuse.

I just played a great/fun old course in Ct. called Indian Hill. It's private but residents of the town(Newington) have access on Thursday and Sunday/? afternoons. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar resolution between the town and Deepdale. I'm sure both sides understand leverage.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2006, 11:25:44 AM »


Some leverage.  Why not go after North Hills CC. They have a pool and tennis and a better dining facility?  

Or

is the decision to pursue Deepdale rather than North Hills based on factors other than economics?  

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2006, 11:30:14 AM »
Quote

As far as the Deepdale issue goes, the town is so far from achieving it's stated 'goal' (dubious legal precedent, not enough funds to buy the course at fair market value) you have to wonder is there isn't some ulterior motive here. If I lived in the town I would not be happy if the club pursued this through the courts-particularly if I was a non-golfer.

Jim_Kennedy
Quote

I just played a great/fun old course in Ct. called Indian Hill. It's private but residents of the town(Newington) have access on Thursday and Sunday/? afternoons. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar resolution between the town and Deepdale. I'm sure both sides understand leverage.


Ding.
Next!

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2006, 11:43:36 AM »
Hambone,

According to Sports Illustrated, the Deputy Mayor is a member at North Hills CC along with 60 other residents. Now that would be interesting if the Mayor went after his Deputy Mayor!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 11:44:18 AM by Mike Sweeney »

rgkeller

Re:Deepdale update
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2006, 01:20:05 PM »


Some leverage.  Why not go after North Hills CC. They have a pool and tennis and a better dining facility?  

Or

is the decision to pursue Deepdale rather than North Hills based on factors other than economics?  

North Hills CC is not in the Village of North Hills.

And many of the NH members have "connections" in Brooklyn.