[archie_struthers]

 




Pine Valley remains the best architectural work I have ever seen . The beauty of the individual holes and their integration into the whole flows. The ebb and flow of difficulty is fabulous. As one of the few who have ever seen it firm and fast , you just can't believe the subtleties inherent at higher speed. Think about holding the 6th fairway with your tee shot , really!


With more review , The new tees (not all) built to combat the  technology's impact on the game have grown on me . They are quite good. Don't like the new bunkers on #'s 4 &  9 strategically  but they look original. The stewards have done their job and sublimated their egos for the greater good, unlike many classic venues.  It has changed with time and new conditioning methodology, but Crumps original intent seems quite obvious despit the


This being said , removal of the trees on many holes would most likely be incredible. Keep in mind that many of the old pictures of bunkered slopes is impractical given the rains that occasionally rumble thru Southern NJ. You need the vegetation to hold the slopes . But tree clearing to provide vistas might be jaw dropping .


Imagine sitting on the first tee and seeing the green and all the bunkers and pits that dot the landscape to your right.  Same with #12 and #13. Skyline green on nine , absolutely!  I'm not so sure about 8, but it has merit , there are plenty of pits laying hidden to the left.




Could it improve , sure . Is it fabulous , absolutely .

[Jim Nugent]

This being said , removal of the trees on many holes would most likely be incredible.

Imagine sitting on the first tee and seeing the green and all the bunkers and pits that dot the landscape to your right.  Same with #12 and #13. Skyline green on nine , absolutely!  I'm not so sure about 8, but it has merit , there are plenty of pits laying hidden to the left.

Could it improve , sure . Is it fabulous , absolutely .

And the third question: how likely is it to happen? 

[Rick Emerson]

I have never played Pine Valley but, I have read a lot on what many people think makes the course great and a word that continually comes up is isolation. I have heard it said that each hole feels like it is by itself and other golfers on other holes seem non existent. This brings up a question I have for those that have played there. Could trees be removed that would better show and bring all the design features into play while still keeping that feeling of isolation that many say adds to the special sense of place pine valley provides via isolation/seclusion?

[archie_struthers]

 




Rick , great question . Answer is yes !   Place is huge

[Joe Bausch]

I've organized all those early Sears collection photos of Pine Valley (with some cropping and tuning up as well) and put them in an easy to view photo album:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/PV_construction_photos/

[MCirba]

Archie is correct Rick.  Plenty of room to serve multiple masters of strategy, visual oomph, and splendid isolation.

Great stuff Joe Bausch!

[Anthony Gholz]

Joe: 


Awesome and all in one place with proper identification.  Thank you!


Help me with the dating; saying something is UC is great, but that can mean 1911 or 1920.  We're these all taken at one time?


Again thank you for this organized archive.
Tony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Don't forget the skyline green on # 2.

# 17 too.

The aerials from the 20's and 30's are impressive.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe: 

Help me with the dating; saying something is UC is great, but that can mean 1911 or 1920.  We're these all taken at one time?

I don't know if they were all taken on the same day.

Note that the Sears collection has no pics of holes 11-15.  When Crump died in January of 1918, holes 12-15 had not been completed.

Also note that most of the photos in that collection, IMO, are of holes under some stages of construction.  Some more so than others.

But I'm guessing b/c of the lack of photos of holes 11-15 that the pics are from before 1918.

[Kalen Braley]

The question to me is...did Crump really know what he had when he died?  You figure he knew it was going to be one of the best in the area...but one of the best in the world as its consistently rated in the top 10 courses world wide?
 
And for that matter, does any current living archie have any experience with knowing before its done...that "wow this is going to be a world beater"??

[Anthony Gholz]

Thanks Joe.  When it was pointed out that 6 was misidentified as 15 on my LOC review then I got confused.  Appreciate the information and will change my dates.


Tony

[Tim_Weiman]

Archie,


Thanks for your input. Regarding #8, I was thinking to left of the original green as much as behind. Just small way of making it appear more island like.

[archie_struthers]

 


Tim , as to #8, some removal of surrounding trees around the green sounds like an excellent idea. We often  discuss a skyline green on 9 or denuding the left of 12. ( it would be so awesome ).  Often the absence of background foliage  or framing trees makes for great illusion . On a brutally tough second shot here, it could be the bomb.

Sometimes the questions about eye candy bunkers interests me. "They suck , they stink yada yada yada." Why waste the energy and money ?  I'm not always in this camp, as evidenced by some work at TD.  Remember you generally don't have to maintain them like green side pits.   Also they can be aiming points for tee shots.

Those that discount them might not evaluate them in light of visual deception. Despite most of us playing by yardage in this era , it's not unusual for people to not trust the yardage . As a caddy , it's probably one of the most important things you can do for a good player. Reinforce the reality over the illusion. As an architect , reverse same .

[Ian Mackenzie]

I believe the french fries could be a bit better and perhaps they could use a modern ice machine for better cocktails....

[Jonathan Mallard]

All we need to make this an official GCA thread is for someone to post the thoughts of "the lurker."

[Joe Bausch]

All we need to make this an official GCA thread is for someone to post the thoughts of "the lurker."

I've just received a fairly long e-mail from The Lurker (come on JM, I thought you knew the T was capitalized) on this topic and will say more soon.

[JMEvensky]

All we need to make this an official GCA thread is for someone to post the thoughts of "the lurker."

I've just received a fairly long e-mail from The Lurker (come on JM, I thought you knew the T was capitalized) on this topic and will say more soon.

I thought all 9 letters were capitalized.

[MCirba]

Archie is hitting it on all cylinders on this thread.  Great stuff!

[George Pazin]

Why would anyone want isolation?


Golf is a social game for me, best enjoyed with friends. On the same hole or adjoining. I have no desire whatsoever for isolation.


But perhaps this is a topic for another thread...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why would anyone want isolation?

In order to commune with nature 

Isolation can be a good thing.
As you play the 15th hole at CPC you're totally isolated.
The same can be said about many holes.

One of the most un-isolated courses I've ever played is the CC of Fairfield, a spectacular Raynor design.
Ditto Oakmont.
The wide open nature of the course is fine with me.

But, that doesn't mean that I don't want to play between the dunes, isolated from all the other holes on other golf courses.  # 9 at CPC might be one of them.

Golf is a social game for me, best enjoyed with friends.

Agreed 100 %

On the same hole or adjoining.

Disagree completely.
Your worst enemy could be on the same hole or adjoining hole.

Loud, boisterous, cigar smoking yahoos could be on the same or adjoining hole, but, you'd have no desire to play with them, even if it was Steve Lapper's closest friends. 

I have no desire whatsoever for isolation.

To each, his own.

But perhaps this is a topic for another thread...

OK

[Patrick_Mucci]

The question to me is...did Crump really know what he had when he died? 

YES.

Pine Valley was ALWAYS intended to be a championship course, if not the ultimate championship course.

You figure he knew it was going to be one of the best in the area...but one of the best in the world as its consistently rated in the top 10 courses world wide?

That was the goal, to make it a championship course, one of the best in the world.
 
And for that matter, does any current living archie have any experience with knowing before its done...that "wow this is going to be a world beater"??

I believe that Donald Ross made that claim at Aronomink on opening day.

Kalen, first, you have to ask yourself, how many courses was he competing with in 1914-18 ?

Second, modern architects are often handicapped by the quality of the site and regulatory restrictions.

Third, I would imagine that C&C and Tom Doak felt that way on opening day, but, they can speak for themselves

[Tim_Weiman]

Why would anyone want isolation?


Golf is a social game for me, best enjoyed with friends. On the same hole or adjoining. I have no desire whatsoever for isolation.


But perhaps this is a topic for another thread...

George,


I think you ask a fair question, but without claiming any special insight into Crump's vision of "isolation", I have to disagree.


Pine Valley, IMO, should be Pine Valley. Not some other course where the isolation theme wasn't ever intended and makes no sense.


I'm not interested in a single standard. I'd prefer courses have their own character. That is the whole point behind jumping on a plane. Why go to Philadelphia if Pine Valley is going to be just like, say, Pebble Beach? Why go to St Andrews if it is going to be just like, say, Oakmont? Why go all the way to Melbourne if Royal Melbourne is going to be just like,may, Crystal Downs?


No. I want each to have its own feel, its own character.

[JJShanley]

I just received a copy of the PV history on Inter-Library Loan.  Looking forward to enjoying it with a brandy once I get done with work in the evenings.

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