[mike_malone]

 Plainfield was the best presented parkland course I have experienced. From the proximity of the bag drop to the putting green and the pro shop to the first tee the feeling was "This is all about the golf". (I will excuse the brick steps up to the first tee for the moment.)


       The fairway undulations and the well placed bunkering led to challenging but approachable green complexes. The greens were quick enough to punish a misread or mishit but not so fast as to put one totally on the defensive. The speed matched the contours of the greens allowing for some interesting pin placements.The greens were firm but not rock hard. It seemed that as a 12 handicapper I could play the course.

      The trees I understand have gone through extensive management and it shows off the attractiveness of the property.It also allowed for all the designed in angles to be played. The use of fairway running up to the bunkers and selectively around greens and up to tees was what I want to see at my home course.


      Of course, John Lovito was a generous host who guided us through the course and concisely updated us on the recent changes.His assesssment that the course can be scored on when good shots are made but punishing when you are off the mark was proven true to me.


    My feeling about the "tunnel" (I think that is what he called them) holes was that the diagonal use of water and the dimpled par three green were fine substitutes for the less inspiring land in this short stretch of holes.

        My bias is clearly toward parkland courses that have elevation change and interest in the fairways. This course provided many different looks off the tee from rollercoasters to uphill or downhill. The thing that gets me about this is how it makes me think about playing the shot.


     Clearly it is the best Ross I have enjoyed.


   


       It is a classic era course that has been uncovered and "made up" to show off its best features.



       I hope that Tom Goutman , who is a member of a Phila. Ross course--Torresdale Frankford, doesn't get too depressed by how much TF needs to do to uncover its charms like Plainfield has.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And you didn't even give one nod of approval to Gil Hanse, who has done a remarkable job of guidance with little ego!

[James Bennett]

Mayday

it is great isn't it.  I was blown away after the first hole.

Tommy

thanks - I didn't know (couldn't recall) that it was Gil Hanse who has helped the club through.  I had the pleasure of meeting a past course chairman, and he was an absolute delight,

Plainfield has cross-hatched fairways - something I don't always like.  But it shows off he undulation fantastically.

Pictures another time.

James B

ps  the first green has 7 feet of elevation change without any tiers!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Plainfield was the best presented parkland course I have experienced.

Mayday,

Does this include Merion, or do you place Merion in a "not a parkland" category, which by the way I can understand. Someday you will have to go back to Winged Foot and play The East to compare it with Plainfield. My guess is you would also love Somerset Hills which has a more diverse feel due to some open farm like holes. Maybe your daughter has a spare bedroom for the summer up here in her NYC apartment! Plainfield is my favorite Ross course to date, and it sounds better since I was last there.

Monday May 15th is a Seth Raynor outing at Yale if you want to see even wilder terrain.

[John Gosselin]

Mayday, great 15 holes of golf.

[Mark_Fine]

Mayday,
I just played out there a week or two ago.  I love that golf course and Gil did a fantastic job.  You would appreciate it even more if you saw it before and after Gil's work.  The effort and commitment to do what they have done out there is very impressive and an example for other clubs to follow.
Gil and I have exchanged emails and we plan to get together at some point to discuss further.  

Did you notice some of the different bunker presentations?  I was curious about them.  Here are two examples:  







Interesting difference in the fairway bunkering shapes and depths.

As John said there are a few holes that I am not enamored with but overall this is clearly one of Ross' best designs.  

[mike_malone]

Mike,

  When I used the word "presented" I meant that it seemed to be  the most in harmony with my expectations for a classic parkland course. The penal rough at Merion reduces the presentation value.I think the use of fairway around bunkers near greens and extending to the next tee was the most impressive part of the presentation.

  Tommy,

     I expected others more knowledgeable about the specifics to discuss Gil's work there.

[mike_malone]

I did think the predominance of poa in the greens was a setback,particularly at this time of year when it grows more quickly. The early part of the round provided thrilling putting but as the growth progressed throughout the day the greens got bumpier and less predictable.

    There are examples of successful poa/bent greens but when you have relatively speedy greens the different grasses are a markdown.

[mike_malone]

I just looked at Ran's review . The tree removal is dramatic compared to those photos. For those that have  been there before as you stand on the second tee you can see all the property in front of you and to your left over to #16 (I think).


   This kind of removal is to be applauded because it takes guts and diligence. I know how hard it is to achieve.

   This is why I spoke of the presentation.


   WHY WOULD YOU COVER UP COURSES WITH BEAUTIFULLY FLOWING LAND LIKE THIS?

[Bill Shotzbarger]

       I hope that Tom Goutman , who is a member of a Phila. Ross course--Torresdale Frankford, doesn't get too depressed by how much TF needs to do to uncover its charms like Plainfield has.

The problem is that our membership is too concerned with building a new clubhouse instead of trees on the course. Everytime I play I shake my head at how many trees block out angles.

[mike_malone]

Bill,

   I sympathize. Why bother having a course with such an appealing design when you end up eliminating so many of the wonderful shots that were intended to be played. You might as well have hired some hack to design it. I think Plainfield enlightens the thinking of Ross in a wonderful way and that TF can be the best example of his strategic thinking in Phila.

[wsmorrison]

"The penal rough at Merion reduces the presentation value.

Not that I am aware of what you mean by presentation value, but to humor your apparent interpretation, do the fast greens at Oakmont reduce its presentation value?  Does the long fescue abutting the fairways reduce the presentation value at Muirfield?
How do you feel about the use of OB at Merion, does this also reduce its presentation value?  

"I think the use of fairway around bunkers near greens and extending to the next tee was the most impressive part of the presentation."

More impressive than the bunker complexes, the green complexes and topography?  What are you talking about?  What sort of features enhances presentation value other than fairway around bunkers and greens?

"TF can be the best example of his strategic thinking in Phila."

Please tell me about Ross's strategic thinking at Torresdale-Frankford and how this is the best example in the Philadelphia area.  Easier said than proved.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

As of Friday, most of the rough at Merion East got mowed down to 2 1/2 inches. The course looked as "Parkland" as I've ever seen it.

When it comes to Rolling Green and trees, I'm glad to see the club starting to work on taking some out but you guys have a long way to go. It's a shame that numerous views across that golf course aren't possible. The topography on that course and how Flynn's holes use it is stunning and it would enhance the course so much if it could be seen from other than the hole one is on.

My hope is that Manufacturers and Rolling Green will begin competing with each other to see how many trees they can both take off the interior of their golf courses.

Both would be stunning if you could see across a good deal of the interior of those courses. However, what both need to always keep in mind is to never remove trees that would open up any view of what's all around the peripheries of both golf courses. That would be a real mistake.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

"TF can be the best example of his strategic thinking in Phila."

Please tell me about Ross's strategic thinking at Torresdale-Frankford and how this is the best example in the Philadelphia area.  Easier said than proved.

Torresdale is a perfect example of how some golden age courses can still hold up against the modern game. At 6350 from the tips the course should be a pushover for the better player: but it's not. The short par fours are as good as any course in the area that isn't on Ardmore Avenue. The prototypical short 4 (1, 3, 5, 12, 15, 18) at Torresdale is an easy tee shot to a fairly wide fairway and a wedge to a heavily bunkered, elevated, back to front sloping green. The green complexes are so good that par from pin high off the green is nearly impossible. Tree removal would allow for more players to try to hit the green from the rough, thus bringing the bunkers more into play from the outside angle of the approach shot.

A couple greens are so severe that some members don't even attempt to hit the green for fear of being above the pin. 3 and 14 are the hardest pars on the course simply because of the greens: 370 par 4 and 205 par 3 respectively.

My lowest score at Torresdale is a 78. Elsewhere? 72, in a tournament nonetheless.

[TEPaul]

BillS:

I know Torresdale pretty well and I never thought about the course having a bunch or really good par 4s but you're right about that. And they are so different from one another. All the short par 4s are real birdie holes but even a slight mistake on any of them can cost you a bogie or so.  Perhaps the most subtle is the 15th. That hole is really simple looking but getting too aggressive off the tee and making a mistake can hurt. Most everyone I knew there (from the Kerwin Cup) hit iron on that tee. #12 looks pretty simple too but it's not hard to miss that fairway with a bit too much aggressiveness, and of course going even a little long of that green can be a real disaster.

I guess I could be persuaded otherwise but I never liked the 18th. It's just a very uncomfortable looking and feeling hole to me but there's no question you can make all kinds of different mistakes on it.

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

I walked your course while Adam Messix played (I have a bad shoulder) and there was very much to like about the course.  It is a really good golf course that will improve greatly with far fewer trees.  My recollections are based on one visit so I think my perspective is limited.  However, I remember nice topography, some excellent bunkering (a couple of oddly unique ones like the ones behind 2 (sand at the top of small mounds)), a nice variety and flow of holes and interesting green complexes.  However, many of the holes are straight with little to no offset of the greens.  There was little use of offset fairways and greens that made for strategic placement.  Granted some of the slopes in the fairways accomplished this without having offsets.

Wider fairways restored to former widths would, as it would anywhere, offer more angles on all shots.  Yet with the slopes on those greens at today's greenspeeds, it is over the top.  Those greens were designed and built for former greenspeeds and protects par today in ways the original design would not.  If day to day players don't try to hit the green for fear of being above the hole and would rather chip from the rough, something is out of balance.  

I don't consider the decision making due to excessive slope with today's greenspeeds an indication of designed-in strategy but rather an artifact of a process that has changed the way the golf course plays.  In other words, it is a result not of architecture but rather agronomics.  The interplay of the two makes a golf course what it is in terms of playability.  The greenspeeds at the time of design were significantly less and we must guard against looking back with today's perspective.  

These increased greenspeeds put more of a premium on where to place the tee shot or where to come in for the approaches so it appears strategic design but is it strategy based upon the intended architecture or today's unintended (from Ross) agronomic conditions?  T-F is a quality golf course, but the most strategic Ross in the district?  I'm not certain that Mike can prove that statement.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   That's some very fine stuff in your last post. I agree with most of it. I think TF can be the best example of Ross's stategic thinking in Philly. That is intended to be more of a supporting statement to those pressing for change there than an argument.

     It seems fairly clear that the elevation change has been severely compromised in its strategic impact by the trees. If after TF does what Plainfield has done the course falls just short of some other Ross in Philly that won't be bad.

[tomgoutman]

I played with Mayday at Plainfield and echo many of his positive comments. It's one of the top courses I've played and my favorite Ross course. Leaving aside any detailed architectural analysis (I'm at work now), suffice it to say that the course was very enjoyable to play, difficult at times but not punishing, with variety and interesting features throughout. The sort of course that you want to go out and play another 18 at the end of the round. And John Lovito was the perfect host. As for Torresdale, many of the club members, and all of the members of the Green Committee (on which I serve) are deeply committed to the course (and not just the clubhouse). We are starting a master plan that will doubtless include some tree removal.

[Matt_Ward]

The qualities of Plainfield are self evident -- what's so funny is that the folks at Digest opted to drop the course 50 spots even after the superlative work of Hanse.

Yes, a few more trees could come down and that woiuld certainly help. What's inane is how certain power types within the club opted to bag the superintendent because of the demotion demonstrated by the ignorance of the panelists with Digest.

The previous super is now at Liberty National.

Plainfield, IMHO, is generally unknown outside a 75 miles radius and for that main reason gets little continous hype beyond those who post here.

I have always said that the top two spots in Jersey golf are PV and Plainfield -- the gap between #2 and #3 is indeed a wide one given what Ross did so well there.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Who knows why it dropped on the Digest rankings but it didn't drop for me.  It went up since Gil's work for sure.  You'll never please everyone in this business no matter what you do.  My philosophy is probably similar to his in that you do your best and what you think is right and be happy with that.  Hopefully the course will recover to where is should be when the next list comes out.  If not, hopefully the majority of the membership knows how good their golf course really is.  That is what is most important.  

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Hold the phone partner -- I didn't say you but the simple fact is the collective weight (shall I use the term?) blew it big time with Plainfield.

The finished work of Hanse was nearly done prior to the ratings period and the course DROPPED 50 SPOTS !!! The work Hanse provided actually improved what was already first rate to start with. If the actual product has improved then plenty of eyes who should know better need to open up a good bit more.

That is inane and indefensible.

No less than the overreaction at the club to bag their superintendent in connection with their standing by Digest.

Plainfield is indeed what people have said here. From the courses I have played the layout is a solid top 50 in the USA at worst.

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