[Patrick_Mucci]

I've noticed large pitch marks from approach shots.

I've seen approach shots hit the green and stick, or back up a little, leaving a large pitch mark.

Shouldn't the greens be firmer ?
Shouldn't there be NO pitch marks ?

Or, has a counterbalancing element been introduced to help with scoring ?

Wetter, softer greens ?

[rocket]

push-up greens?, thatch layer?,  it just early in the season.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

I was surprised when everyone kept saying firm and fast on TV, but pitch marks were on the greens. It appears the fairways and greens are playing differently.

[Patrick_Mucci]

push-up greens?, thatch layer?,  it just early in the season.  

ANGC's season is over in a few weeks, it's late, not early.

Mike Sweeney,

Those were my thoughts as well.

I still want to know where I can get those fishing guides.

[Josh_Mahar]

All I keep hearing is how firm and fast it is--but I would have to agree that it doesn't seem overly so.  It is always fast but the greens seem pretty receptive and fairways are not rolling and bounding that much.  Tiger even complained of a mud ball on Thursday.
Still a superb setup I think but too much has been made of the firm fast conditions--it is always that way unless it rains like it is going to today.

[Brad Klein]

Fairways are very fast and firm. The greens are USGA spec-construction and being lightly watered every day. They are fast but not rock hard and are receptive to well-struck shots.

[Anthony_Nysse]

If you watch them take divots from the fairway, there is alot of dust coming from their divots. Knowing the quality of maintenance of ANGC, I'm be very shocked if there is much of any thatch in those greens. Hell, they get from middle of May to November to do what ever they want to them as they are closed!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[TEPaul]

Pat:

In my opinion, the greens are a tad too soft and receptive, unless there's been some rain this week which I doubt. Ideally we should not be able to see a pitch mark on those greens on TV. In my opinion, the green speed is right about on the money.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm no expert on golf or course maintenance but from watching every minute of the TV coverage Thursday and Friday (OK, I fast-forward the interviews and canned fluff pieces) I'd say the conditions at ANGC those two days were pretty much perfect for hosting a major championship.

A shot from the right angle and landing in (exactly) the right spot could stop quickly even out of the "second cut", for instance Vijay's shot on seventeen yesterday, but land a few feet away and you're in trouble. On the fifteenth hole balls hit to the right spot but not perfectly struck would take a turbo-boost toward the pond on sixteen. Yet it was possible to land the ball softly on certain portions of that green from 200 yards if you could hit it high and spinning (Nicklaus-style). The twelfth, thirteenth and ninth (or was it the tenth with the front pin Friday) required control of spin and trajectory in order to avoid trouble, rewarding not just strategy and aim but ballstriking mastery.

Now for all I know it would have been "even better" with harder green surfaces but it's hard for me to imagine. It has been a hell of a toonamint so far. It's a dead giveaway when you can tell from the player's reaction while the ball's in the air when a shot is or isn't going to hold. I love seeing these guys having to control direction, distance, shape, trajectory and spin and then being consistently rewarded when they do and punished when they don't. I'd say ANGC in the first two rounds gets pretty close to that ideal. Much firmer and I'd think the "consistently rewarded when they do" might be in jeopardy. But I'm no expert.

[rjsimper]

It's a dead giveaway when you can tell from the player's reaction while the ball's in the air when a shot is or isn't going to hold. I love seeing these guys having to control direction, distance, shape, trajectory and spin and then being consistently rewarded when they do and punished when they don't. I'd say ANGC in the first two rounds gets pretty close to that ideal. Much firmer and I'd think the "consistently rewarded when they do" might be in jeopardy. But I'm no expert.

I'm in agreement with this - I think that yes, the greens do seem softer, but I do believe that under "just the right circumstances" on a course like ANGC, a well struck, high, soft, spinning shot should be given a fighting chance of holding.  No darts, but take the 15th for example.  We saw balls go barrelling over the back, and we saw Tiger's block-job land soft yesterday.  

The only one I wondered about was 13 (and I know that green is constructed differently, or at least was for a while) but there were some mid-long iron darts thrown in there (Oberholser, and one or two others) that seemed to land a little bit too squishy for my tastes.

Overall, I think it's a great mix of "I have a chance if I stick it just right" and "Sayonara" to be entertaining but not unfair.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent,

Substantive pitch marks shouldn't occur.

It's a sign that that greens are soft.

I'm not saying that they should be excessively firm, but, an occassional bounce or two forward, after landing is a better condition then sticking.

I don't believe that there is a second cut anymore, but, I could be mistaken.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

What I'm seeing is a certain amount of unpredicatablilty on some of those approach shots. Some approaches seem to stick (or suck back) like Couples into #17 yesterday and some seem to have none of the receptiveness a player may be expecting like Singh's tee shot into #4. This kind of thing is tough for those players to gauge and plan for. I remember a few years ago when the greens were really firm and some greens like #15 just weren't holding approaches at all---eg everyone was going over it who went for it in two but they all appeared to know that and expect it and were dealing with it without surprise.

The first two days of this Masters seems to me to be rewarding those players who are the absolute best course managers out there----players of the type like Tim Clark et al. That type of player seems to be all over the first few pages---the type of "safety first" strategist. I think I'll check the cards of that type of player and we might see few of them have had any doubles or worse.  

[Brent Hutto]

The first two days of this Masters seems to me to be rewarding those players who are the absolute best course managers out there----players of the type like Tim Clark et al. That type of player seems to be all over the first few pages---the type of "safety first" strategist. I think I'll check the cards of that type of player and we might see few of them have had any doubles or worse.  

Tim Clark's cool. But speaking of furriners, that tall guy...what's his name...Vijay something. He's always seemed like a level-headed, plodding sort of fellow who conservatively navigates around the course. I wonder if he has had a double yet?

[TEPaul]

" But speaking of furriners, that tall guy...what's his name...Vijay something. He's always seemed like a level-headed, plodding sort of fellow who conservatively navigates around the course. I wonder if he has had a double yet?"

Brent:

You're kidding, right? Vijay Singh is the player who basically invented this modern day phenomenon of "flogging". I was watching him play a practice round in the US Open at Shinnecock and I noticed he hit driver just about everywhere when no one else was. I started wondering why he was practicing like that there and if he would actually do that in the Open. He did and it cost him big time. Singh is no more naturally conservative than Phil Micklelson is. Yesterday I think Singh had three doubles and maybe even worse than that.

I don't blame those ultra long guys like Singh, Mickelson and sometimes now Tiger for playing the way they do these days (flogging) because the fact is if they make a mistake all three of them basically have otherworldly short games. Whether you noticed it or not the guy who's gotten aggressive off the tee at ANGC is Freddie. Of course he's basically been hitting that driver like a charm all year long. Couples has always basically been a power fader but he's been hitting a distance enhancing draw on call all year long when he needs to. That's a new wrinkle for Couples.

I guess Phil may be able to hit a fade or a draw on call too but he seems to have found an even better strategy---eg a fade driver AND a draw driver in his bag.  

[TEPaul]

"Tim Clark's cool."

Brent:

I agree with you. Clark is sort of like an "Everyman" golfer. But the real "Everyman" golfer made the cut too this week---eg Miguel Jimenez. Golfers like those two are just not the type who try to hit the ball over tall buildings in a single bound.  

[Brent Hutto]

You're kidding, right?

Almost slipped that one right by you.

[jeffwarne]

Patrick,
the greens were a bit softer Friday.
The forecast was for partly cloudy and winds of 20-30 mph in the afternoon so the powers that be took precautionary measures against the greens crusting up and creating possible unplayabble/unputtable conditions (a situation which could happen (and has) on elevated and exposed greens.
With a bad forecast for Saturday , the last thing I'm sure they wanted was an unnecessary delay on Friday because of unputtable greens in the predicted high winds.

The weather ended up mainly cloudy and more humid than anticipated and the winds ,while strong and swirly, were not quite as high as anticipated. The side effect was greens slightly softer than ideal or predicted , but more playable consistent conditions for the field. Perhaps not a perfect result, but a side effect (lower scores and more margin for error) that most can live with.
Contrasted with the USGA debacle at Shinnecock the last day where early groups were used as guinea pigs before the USGA figured out they screwed up and changed conditions for later players by hand watering greens between groups. Amazingly the wind blew hard the night BEFORE the final round at Shinnecock so the effect shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone and appropriate measures should've been taken.

Anyone who says the fairways aren't fast and firm simply hasn't been there this week. And the ball IS bounding and bouncing a long way.The greens are firm as well, but as Pat correctly points out not as firm as they could be or were earlier in the week and on Thursday. But certainly firmer than all PGA weekly venues except possibly the US Open when conditions allow.

The new length changes are great(except#7 which is no longer a distinctly great drive and pitch hole) and the only other criticism I might have are the new trees popping up with less shotmaking options if you're in them-I'd be OK even with most of the new trees if they were spaced randomly and/or further apart without those goofy raised individual pine straw beds.

For a spectator though, simply the best run event out there and nothing is even a close second.

[rocket]

Sorry, Pat  Had one too many late night beers.  I didn't think you were refering to ANGC.  LOL.   GCAholics.

[TEPaul]

Today those greens were so soft it became almost as complicated for some players as if they were really firm.  

[Nick Pozaric]

Pat:

In my opinion, the greens are a tad too soft and receptive, unless there's been some rain this week which I doubt. Ideally we should not be able to see a pitch mark on those greens on TV. In my opinion, the green speed is right about on the money.

Some friends of mine played there last weekend and they said the course was very soft and wet back then.  Add that to the rain today and...

[Jim Thompson]

In one of the other Augusta threads, someone, and I wish I had the time to look it up, mentioned noticing some growth patterns on the greens that showed signs of the most recent aerification.  This would make the greens a bit more receptive, particularly after a good post aerification topdressing.  Does anyone have any insight as to when their last aerification was and what method they used?

[Chris Kane]

The mud sticks as Ogilvy hits out at Augusta

By Andrew Both and Martin Blake, Augusta
April 9, 2006

IT TOOK only two competitive rounds at Augusta National for Geoff Ogilvy to criticise the US Masters course set-up.

Ogilvy, in particular, is unhappy with the par-four 10th hole, which he says has been heavily watered to prevent tee shots from rolling too far on the steeply downhill fairway.

The result, however, is that balls are picking up mud, making second shots little more than guesswork. That happened on Friday to, among others, Ogilvy, fellow Australian Adam Scott and Spaniard Sergio Garcia, while Tiger Woods had the same fate in the first round.

"It's ridiculous," said Ogilvy, who bogeyed the hole after getting an annoying "mudball". "It doesn't matter what drive you hit, you end up in the same spot.

"If they didn't (heavily water the fairway), we'd all be down near the old bunker and hitting a wedge in and they obviously don't want that.

"I don't think (Masters chairman Hootie Johnson) wants to know what I'm talking about and he'd probably be happy if it was unfair because that's the way he goes about things," said Ogilvy, who was seven shots behind halfway leader Chad Campbell.

"They cut all the fairways towards the tees, so the ball doesn't run, and some greens are firm, some are soft, depending on how they want them to play.

"They can set it up how they want and they make it as tricky as possible."

That's something Ogilvy, who is destined to play here for many years, will have to just get used to.

If Ogilvy's allegation is true (that greens are deliberately presented with varying levels of firmness), what do you think?  Is such a setup policy "fair game"?

[jeffwarne]

Shocker-a tour player whining

Augusta got it right-- again
did the greens make pitch marks? yes
did they reward quality shots and punish loose ones? yes
who cares whether or not a pitch mark is made?
Trust me if they were that firm (no ballmarks) there'd be no Tim Clark and other short hitters near par.
(disclosure-I love firm greens, but understand when they may not be possible or appropriate)

Let's leave near dead greens to the dottering fools at the USGA who simply "protect par" by shortening par 5s to 4s,killing greens and growing hay around ribbon fairways-resulting in multiple fluke winners.

After 4 days of watching the tournament this was the first time in years that certain holes on the course seemed  long-as they did in the 70's and 80's-and the risk has been put back into risk/reward.
and I now think #7 is a better hole because it actually presents options.(I didn't think so before the event)
before everyone laid up to the same place and hit short iron
now a driver is required to hit a short iron and the hole plays tough for those who can't/won't stripe driver.

and I would play the member's tees-these guys are good
 the low handicap/typical club pro would struggle to break 85.
those who say different are really good or haven't been there.
kudos for The Masters showing the USGA that separate courses are basically needed for tour level players unless they fix the ball/equipment

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