[mike_malone]

 I often hear more tenured members at my club say that the greens used to be much faster twenty years ago.

    After reading Bob Crosby's recounting of Nicklaus's statements about Oakmont it got me to thinking.

  Is it possible that these courses with reputations of fast greens were just FASTER RELATIVE to most other courses back then ? And now there are more courses with fast greens so that comparatively these "fast" courses appear to have slowed down . (I am not saying this about Oakmont)

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

Anyone who says greens were faster 20 years ago than they are now doesn't have any idea what they're talking about. That's ridiculous.

Oakmont was unusual in that they were much faster than any other greens many decades ago. The reason they could do that is Emil Loeffler was the first one or the only one to figure out how to lower the cut by filing his bed-knives.

Actually, I was reading this really old article somewhere, maybe from the teens or 1920s about how some greens got so fast they were ridiculous. They had some word for what the ball would do. Basically balls would just roll off greens.

Since it was impossible to actually cut the greens that low back then can you imagine how they got the greens that fast? Give it a guess and if you get it I'll be most impressed.

[mike_malone]

Grain?

[JESII]

Coupled with dry grass blades.

[David Ober]

Mayday:

Anyone who says greens were faster 20 years ago than they are now doesn't have any idea what they're talking about. That's ridiculous.

Oakmont was unusual in that they were much faster than any other greens many decades ago. The reason they could do that is Emil Loeffler was the first one or the only one to figure out how to lower the cut by filing his bed-knives.

Actually, I was reading this really old article somewhere, maybe from the teens or 1920s about how some greens got so fast they were ridiculous. They had some word for what the ball would do. Basically balls would just roll off greens.

Since it was impossible to actually cut the greens that low back then can you imagine how they got the greens that fast? Give it a guess and if you get it I'll be most impressed.

Sand or tons of contour are the only two things I can think of...

[TEPaul]

Nah, not grain, although a golf ball certainly will roll more down grain than the other way around.

No what this old article mentioned they did is take a humonguous steam roller and roll the greens. I'm talking a steam roller about the size of one of those things you see when they make roads.

Of course the article also mentioned that they gave up on that green speed enhancer because after they rolled a green with something that heavy the green just died as a result.

[Sean_Tully]

I have heard that rolling was a maintenance practice that was "heavily" used in the early years, but that it lost favor until recently. I had always wondered about this and was surprised to find out how they did infact roll the greens back then. They were rolling greens with some pretty serious contraptions that in the early years were steam powered. I have come across a number of pictures that show them in action and it is a sight to behold. I would think that they were trying to eleviate some of the damage in the fwys caused by the horses that were used to pull the fwy mowers.

Coupled with the firm(dry) conditions and the lack of water(irrigation, rain, and coverage issues) they must of had some pretty compacted soils.

[James Bennett]

Tom Paul

I recall reading that in the early years (late 1800's/early 1900's I guess), the greenstaff at places like The Old Course would let the sheep loose over the greens before a major event.  That was their method to quicken and firm up the greens.

Does anyone recall seeing this (I know that there isn't anyone in this Discussion group that was alive at this time! )

James B

[Bill_Yates]

Oakmont's greens were rolled to make them firm and fast.  I witnessed them being rolled every morning of the 1994 Open Championship.  Most likely they will use the riding rollers again next year.

[Jim_Coleman]

    Michael:
       I can tell you as a fact that RG's greens were much faster 25 years than they've been the last few years.  That's because our greens have stunk the last few years.  In the :good old days," a missed downhill putt on 1 or 13 or 8 often resulted in a 20 ft. comebacker.  Being above the hole was death.  Why the difference?  Then we had healthy poa greens that could be cut close and rolled.  Today we have weak bent greens that must be coddled.  Trust me, this is fact, not opinion.  It is what RG used to be known for.

[David Ober]

   Michael:
       I can tell you as a fact that RG's greens were much faster 25 years than they've been the last few years.  That's because our greens have stunk the last few years.  In the :good old days," a missed downhill putt on 1 or 13 or 8 often resulted in a 20 ft. comebacker.  Being above the hole was death.  Why the difference?  Then we had healthy poa greens that could be cut close and rolled.  Today we have weak bent greens that must be coddled.  Trust me, this is fact, not opinion.  It is what RG used to be known for.

Poa is a GREAT surface when cut close and rolled. At least it stays great for several hours at least...

[Joe Hancock]

Today we have weak bent greens that must be coddled.  Trust me, this is fact, not opinion.

I believe the facts should be stated more clearly that if you have weak bentgrass, it is because it is being coddled.

Go to Kingsley Club and spend a couple hours with Dan Lucas, superintendent. He will outline for you how he abuses his bentgrass greens and tees such that Kingsley Club has some of the toughest, healthiest, best playing bentgrass in the US. That's a fact.

Joe

[Sean_Tully]

Here are some pics of some early rollers and some sheep tending the turf. Some good stuff!

http://homepage.mac.com/tullfescue/PhotoAlbum2.html

Tully

[James Bennett]

Tully

thanks for the photos of the sheep on the greens at the 1901 Women's Open - I feel like I'm not losing my marbles.

See you in 4 weeks.

James B

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