Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)

[Andy Hughes]

Ralph, what distance do hickory guys tend to play?  Surely not anywhere near the lengths of courses today I assume.  And do you tend to play courses that encourage, or at least permit, more low, running shots? From the Wild Horse threads, that would seem the type of place to play hickory, but I am not sure I can really see the rationale if playing on a typical, over-green American course.

Perhaps I have an overly-romanticized vision of what a game with hickory should be like--certainly easy for me to say what you guys should be doing and how!  

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy - you have to remember Ralph plays ALL of his golf with hickories.  So of course I can't answer for him, but one would have to assume he's not playing ONLY on courses that would allow the ground game, or that play firm and fast.

As for me, well... we don't have many courses like that anywhere near me anyway!  That is, firm and fast, encouraging the ground game.  So if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna have to be prepared to play some high shots and get some carry.  Remember also that a lot of the issue here is also club construction - the niblick I have now has negative bounce - that is it is made to dig, as most clubs were in this era.  That's tough on a soft course.  Thus my need for a Stewart wedge, which would also have some bounce.  Re the need for a spoon, it's not absolutely necessary, but it would be nice to have a club I could carry more than 180 yards off the deck.

I understand what you're getting at, though.  It's just tough to leave this at the "lark/only special occassions" phase, once you get into it.  Or at least it's proving to be that way for me...

TH

[Sean_A]

I have been seriously considering purchasing a wee set of hicks for a spell now.  I deally I am looking for something like 6 sticks that are playable and with good grips.  I am in the ball park when I suggest the following:

Brassie = driver or 2 wood
Spoon = 5-7 wood
Mongrel Mashie/Jigger = 5 iron
2 Mashie/4 iron = 6 iron
Spade Mashie/Benny = 8 iron
Niblick = wedge/sandwedge

Ciao

Sean

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - you're pretty close on the names.  Here's how it is, from Ralph's site, re the irons (sorry for the mashed up table - to view this better, go to hickorygolf.com, Irons Equivalent table):

Model  Avg Length  Loft Range  Avg Loft  Avg Modern Standard  
Cleek  39.65" 17-20° 19°  
Driving Mashie  38.5" 17-21° 19.5° 2-Iron 39" 20°
Driving Iron  39.2" 19-21° 20°  
1-Iron  39.2" 18-23° 20°  
Push Iron  38.25" 18-26° 25° 3-Iron 38.5" 23°
2-Iron  38.3" 22-28° 25.5°  
Mashie Iron 38.1" 22-29° 26°  
Mid-Iron  38.3" 23-29° 27° 4-Iron 38" 26°
Approaching Cleek  37.75" 22-32° 27°  
Iron  38" 25-29° 28°  
Mongrel Mashie  37.9" 27-29° 28° 5-Iron 37.5" 29°
3-Iron  37.75" 27-30° 28.5°  
Jigger  37.6" 28-32° 29°  
2 Mashie  37" 28-31° 30° 6-Iron 37" 32°
4-Iron  37.25" 32-37° 35°  
Mashies      
- Mid-size/Deep face 37" 30-34° 33.5°  
- Mid-size 36.7" 35-37° 36° 7-Iron 36.5" 36°
- Low face (lofter) 36.3" 38-41° 39°  
Spade Mashie 36.5" 40-48° 41° 8-Iron 36" 40°
Benny  35.7" 43-44° 43°  
Mashie Niblicks      
- Deep face 36.3" 40-44° 43° 9-Iron 36" 44°
- Celtic & Low face 36" 45-50° 46°  
Niblick 36" 46-57° 52° PW 36" 48°

Re woods,

Driver = driver
brassie = 2wood
spoon = 3wood

Not sure how it works over that, but I think a cleek is alike a 4-5 wood.

In any case, I got a set of six clubs like this:

Brassie
Midiron
Mashie
Mashie-niblick
Niblick
Putter

It's very sufficient to get around a course.  I'm now looking for a spoon (for long carry shots from fairway) and a Stewart Niblick, which would be more of a PW/SW.

TH
 
   

[RSLivingston_III]

Just to get caught up-

Auchterlonie's is, as you would expect, a tourist trap and has the prices to prove it. Most prices are 50-100% over golf collector "retail". I have purchased a few things from them, but they were collectables that they missed up-pricing. You really have to know your stuff to find a deal there.

I don't want to discourage anyone from playing with fewer clubs. Feeling your way around with fewer clubs gets you a better sense of what the clubs do. I just want you to know that if you want to be able to negotiate around some of the modern courses with a normal score you will need more shot variety. Depending on what you get for a tee ball club, you will find you have some shot distances that show up more often then others. Later you will want to find the certain club that is indispensable.

The club many of you will want to get to fill in between the Mashie and Mid-iron is the Jigger. With it's low center of gravity it was designed to hit high carry shots in the 160-175 range. I think it is Thomas that describes a 165 yard par 3 that is a Jigger shot in his book. Maybe MacKenzie. I will look it up tonight.

I do play everything with hickories and have yet to find something I can't play. 6500 yards seems to be the magic number for me. 6200-6500 for lush, 6500-6800 for firm. At Kingsley I can play any of the tees comfortably, and can (could) get pin high in two shots on 15 from all. I have just promised myself I won't play the back tees again until I get fit enough to break 80 from the blues. CD from the members tees is perfect, I haven't tried it from the back.
I could play the back tees on modern courses, but rarely will the hazards be in play. I want to hit tee shots where shot placement is challenging.

With regard to the woods, most Brassies seem to come in around 14-15 degrees , I believe making them close to modern 3 woods. Most Spoons are in the 18-20 range (4-5 wood?). There were vertually no standards then and you will find them all over the place in loft. I tend to reface Brassies to 15 and Spoons to 20, provided they have the material to do it. Otherwise I work off the Driver loft and just do 5 degree intervals from it.
Actually, 5 degree intervals is generally how the Irons work out too.
One thing to remember, the woods "sweet spot" is in the middle to bottom half of the face. Teeing high is a really bad idea. Jones hit his Driver off the deck for a long time.

The Iron chart probably needs to be revised, I don't think the current wedges match up any more. PW seem to be closer to Mashie Niblicks and Niblicks are now like a Gap Wedge?? Is the Sand Wedge still at 55 degrees?

Sean,
I would recommend what Tom got as a starting point: Brassie, Mid-Iron, Mashie, Mashie Niblick, Niblick, Putter. Fill in the rest later.
Are you in the Detroit area? I am in GR. Any of the MI guys interested in a GCA meeting this winter/spring? I am about due to show up to one.

[RSLivingston_III]

I did want to say how much I support the guys asking about getting out with pro-classic/persimmon clubs from the last half dozen decades. I just recently purchased a set of steel shafted Stewarts to try playing with. So in coming weeks my streak of 9 years of hickory only will be coming to an end.
Don't count on my using a driver made in the last decade with them.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ralph:

Say it ain't so!  This is like Cal Ripken missing a game because he wants he has to watch his kids play hoops... admirable, but sad.

 

Just kidding - heck, steel-shafted Stewarts sound intriguing as hell also.  And of course you simply can't get within 6 feet of Titanium.

 

Interesting too - playing forged irons and persimmon woods from the last 60 years would seem to be a very fine compromise for those going the "reigned-back" route.  I know I did this quite a bit before I bought the hickories.  I think others here have also.  For us, hickories seemed the logical extension of this; for you, it's got to be just another thing to try.

TH

[RSLivingston_III]

Tom,
Mostly I am getting them to see the differences in feel between the steel and hickory. The top players were very quick in adopting steel in their woods, but very slow to adopt steel in their Irons because they lacked feel for the shotmaking. I want to try and experiance it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,
Mostly I am getting them to see the differences in feel between the steel and hickory. The top players were very quick in adopting steel in their woods, but very slow to adopt steel in their Irons because they lacked feel for the shotmaking. I want to try and experiance it.

That makes absolutely perfect sense - and will be a very interesting experiment.

Hmmmm... isn't the analagous to the shift from steel to graphite?  You don't see many good players using anything other than steel in the irons.

TH

[RSLivingston_III]

I know you don't have a lot of experiance with them, but can you describe any difference in feel between the hickories and your modern set of Irons?

[Tom Huckaby]

Ralph:

That's a tough one.  For one I am poor on swing mechanics, and for two my descriptive powers rather suck.  But here's the best I can do:

The hickory irons feel more "solid".  That is, there just seems to be little if any torque, as I understand that term (swaying/bending of shaft).  I don't mean they are stiffer so much, rather they just are thicker, have more mass while at the same time not feeling heavier... so the result is a really "one-piece" feel in the entire swing, rather than the torque one can definitely feel in steel, and graphite.

I'm sure that makes little sense.

Of course one also has to keep in mind the HUGE difference in a tiny blade head compared to modern larger perimeter-weighted forgiveness monster irons like most of us have.  My modern irons are two hybrids and the rest a combo of forged clubs, with less perimeter weighting and forgiveness going from low iron to high iron.  The difference in these from the blades I have in the hickories is really night and day.

In any case, I was really thinking a GREAT way to play would be modern clubheads on a hickory shaft... but of course that's not the point of what I am doing.  I do want to move towards Stewarts, though.  

[RSLivingston_III]

Actually, that is a great description. Might have to borrow it for some of my things. Does it make you think players are needlessly obsessed over torque?

The modern heads on hickory has been already accomplihed. Check out Tad Moore. We are trying to rein-in the replica club makers and get them to make true replicas instead of a modernized head for easiler playability. I know he is a club designer, but it sort of defeats the purpose of playing hickories.

Maybe the graphite shaft manufacturers can learn something from hickory shafts and design shafts that are more like hickory in flex, weight, feel, etc.

[Tom Huckaby]

I do think something one quickly learns playing hickories is that the modern player is certainly needlessly obsessed over torque.  Man these hickories are much easier to control... But of course you do lose distance - but that's not the point of an iron shot anyway, is it?

And I have seen what Tad Moore is doing - that must make for unfair competitions.  

In any case, at least for irons, heck yeah today's modern shaft-makers can learn from their hickory ancestors.  Good call.

TH

[Sean_Tully]

Tom

If it helps to change your mind for the 3/4 golf outing, I will hopefully have a playing set of hickories by that time. I have always played with older clubs(MAcGregor-Hogan driver and Wilson staff irons 1969) and only recently gone to playing with some hickories. I still have some George Nicoll-Henry Cotton steel shafts that I play with until I pick up some hickories to take their place.

I only have the 2,3,5,6,8 irons and a Hickory driver from Stoke Poges and a putter that has most of the writing worn off the club but it is turn of the century. The putter head is made of aluminum and has 16 lead filled holes on the face. I played Palmetto Golf Club from the white tees and shot a 87 to my surprise and enjoyment.

I have a renewed interest in playing again. I like to play from as close to the orignal yardage as I can for the 1920's when I can. I should of played from some of the more forward tees at Palmetto, but I did not have time to get that all worked out after I saw the clubhouse!

Look forward to meeting you and all the rest.

Oh yeah, I started out playing with some old golf balls from the 60-70's and have only recently switched to the Precept Lady Ball. It has a nice sound off the clubhead and to state the obvious I have never been that concerned with distance. What I find amazing is seeing how far some of the good players (travers)took the club back on their backswing.

Sean

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - fantastic!

Hickories it is on 3/4.  Can't wait.  This will be a fun outing without a doubt.