Why is Turnberry rated so high?

[Ted_Sturges]

In a previous post, I questioned why Royal Aberdeen was not rated higher (it is a "5" in T. Doak's book).  I also have been trying to figure out why Turnberry is rated so high by so many folks.  I believe Turnberry is rated 19th in the World in Golf's most recent poll.  It's not that I didn't like Turnberry (because I did), I just think that 19th in the World seems high for this golf course.  I agree that the 5th,7th,8th, and 10th are just terrific golf holes, and are in the middle of a wonderful stretch of holes.  But with their other holes, is this enough to put the course in the Top 20 in the World?  This is the question I keep asking myself.  

I know many of you hate this, but for the sake of comparison, below is my match play of Royal Aberdeen versus Turnberry.  In Royal Aberdeen you have a "5" on the Doak scale, and a course that is not rated in the Top 100 in the world by any publication I know of.  In Turnberry, you have a course rated 19th in the World, and a place revered by everyone.  The match should be a landslide, right?

1.  RA      RA 1 up
2.  RA      RA 2 up
3.  RA      RA 3 up
4.  Halved  RA 3 up
5.  TB      RA 2 up
6.  RA      RA 3 up
7.  TB      RA 2 up
8.  TB      RA 1 up
9.  RA      RA 2 up
10. TB      RA 1 up
11. Halved  RA 1 up
12. Halved  RA 1 up
13. TB      All square
14. RA      RA 1 up
15. Halved  RA 1 up
16. TB      All square
17. TB      TB 1 up
18. RA      Match halved

Obviously many of my hole choices are debatable.  Although, I don't think anyone would disagree that RA is 3 up after 3, or that it wins the 18th hole.  So in essence, it is 4 up when you start.  

I think ole Royal Aberdeen doesn't get it's due respect (I also think Turnberry may be rated a tad bit high).

TS

[Paul Richards]

I think the answer is very simple here.

Turnberry has the "wow" factor - Royal
Aberdeen doesn't.  

While the front 9 at Aberdeen is wonderful,
indeed, the back nine doesn't leave the same
impression.  It's just OK.  None of the
back nine holes leaves much of an impression.

Turnberry, on the other hand, except for the
first three holes, is full of "Wow!" holes -
numbers 9 and 10, and 16 are as good as
anywhere else.  The rest are just great.
I'll be heading back there in a few weeks
(i've played 4 rounds there already!), and
can't wait to see what they've done to the
Arran course.  If they eliminate the first
three holes, and replace them with some new
seaside Arran holes (as I understand they will do for the next Open there), it'll be
a real knockout.

Turnberry is probably the best course in
Scotland, in my humble opinion.  Royal Dornoch, though, is my favorite.

[John Bernhardt]

Gentlemen, I could not disagree more. To compare Turnberry with RA is a waste of time. It is 17 to 1 to 18 zip Turnberry. I am glad you like RA but it is just another golf course. Turnberry is special.

[Ted_Sturges]

To Paul:  Your comments obviously reflect the opinion of the majority.  My comments are clearly in the minority.  You refer to the "wow" factor in your assessment of Turnberry.  I realize that Royal Aberdeen does not have a 5 star hotel or a lighthouse, but I also realize that these 2 items have no affect on the architecture of the course's golf holes.  I'd really like for you to be more specific in your reasons for rating Turnberry so high.  Please help me understand your (and seemingly everyone else's) point of view.

To John Bernhardt:  17 to 1 in favor of Turnberry just doesn't make sense to me.  Could you also be more specific in your favorable opinion of Turnberry.  WHAT specifically makes the course so superior to Royal Aberdeen?

TS

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Ted I am going back to Turnbery in September and will detail my comment then. Mostly I found RA to be a course with 3 or 4 good holes and a bunch of average ones and the back nine just layed an egg. I feel Turnberry starts just right with a couples holes give you a feel of the tract withut early punishment then you are in up to your neck with great hole after great hole from 4 on. I love 6,7,8,9,10,12,13,14,15 alot, 16,17 and 18. The routing provides for alot of balance and wind changes. Holes like 15 16, 17 and 18 make great events like Watson v Jack N even greater. I am not saying Turnberry is number 1 but it belongs in a discussion of great courses. RA is really not on anyones top 10 in Scotland. I mean TOC, Dornoch, Muirfield, Turnberry,Carnouste, Cruden Bay, Troon, N Berwick, Gullane 1,Nairn, Western Gailes, Machrihanish, Loch Lomond, Prestwick and the Kings course come to mind before RA. Tom even puts the poor neighbor Murcar ahead by a nose.

[Paul Richards]

ted:

the "wow" factor I refer to is not really
about the 5-star hotel, or even the lighthouse, which add to the ambiance, but
are not factors as far as the course itself.

the wow is that the course is so BIG - it's
incredibly challenging (just play it in a
bit of Scottish weather!) and is generally
in great conditioning.  

I respectfully disagree with John though.  It
is in the Top 10 in Scotland - in fact, I
find it the best Open course there is in
Scotland.  It is tough, menacing, beautiful,
fair, awesome, etc. etc.  

Just to name a few adjectives.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Paul, I find Turnberry to be everybit a top 10 course. It was Ra I found not to be in that class.

[Hart_Huffines]

Has anyone played the Arran or Kintyre course lately?  It would be great to learn more about the redo.

[Ted_Sturges]

Paul:

As I read your last post, the only specific thing you mention (other than conditioning) is the scale of the course.  I definitely agree that the course has a big scale, but is this enough to put it in the World Top 20?

I did play one of my rounds there in a 30 mph wind, so I feel I have a good idea of how tough the course is.  I'm trying to find out why this course is rated so high by nearly everyone when:

1.  The green complexes are very tame in comparison to other courses in Scotland.  Dornoch and the Old Course have much more interesting greens than Turnberry.

2.  On many holes, the cross bunkering does not seem to have an impact on the way one chooses to play a hole.  For example, the tee shots on 8,9,10,12,13, and 14 seem lacking in strategy off the tee.

3.  The number of world class holes on this course seems relatively low for such a lofty ranking.  I would submit 5,7,8, and 10 as the strongest holes at Turnberry.  I would submit about twice that many at Fishers Island (currently #39 in the World according to Golf Magazine).  

What are your thoughts on these comments?  John Bernhardt, I know you are going back in Sept, but feel free to jump in here.

TS

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I will in September. I am leaving in the morning for a hard to believe non golf trip to europe with my daughter for 3 weeks. I will miss the treehouse gang.

[Paul Richards]

TS:

I will be playing there June 30th.

Will report back after that trip as well.

However, I will reiterate my position
that it is the best Open venue.

John, sorry about misreading your thoughts
on Turnberry.

[John Morrissett]

Ted broached this subject over a power breakfast at trendy Deli Jack's the other morning.

I had not focused on the greens at Turnberry until he mentioned them.  Since he played Turnberry after playing Machrihanish and walking the Old Course at St. Andrews, it is quite understandable why Turnberry's would suffer by comparison.  (Do the other two courses have the most interesting sets of greens in Scotland?)  

While I do prefer Turnberry to Royal Aberdeen, it's not by a great amount (certainly not the four points on the Doak Scale!).  As Ted writes, much of Turnberry's appeal has nothing to do with the actual design -- the magestic hotel set on top of the hill, the lighthouse, Ailsa Craig, the history of Watson/Nicklaus.  The stretch of 4-10 is all-universe (and 3 and 11 are pretty darn good as well), 15 and 16 are first-rate, and I was glad finally to find someone (Ted) who thought 17 is a neat hole.

Comparing the two courses by nines is an interesting task, as the two are similarly balanced.  The front at R&A won't win prizes for its 5th and 7th holes, while Turnberry's 1st and 2nd are just OK as well.  

One reason I wonder that I prefer Turnberry is that it was the first course in GB&I that the Morrissetts had ever seen (back in '83), and it left a great impression.  On the other hand, it was the last course Ted saw on his recent trip there.  After Machrihanish, Dornoch, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen, and St. Andrews, it could easily have left a different impression (it's tough to follow those others!).  To be ranked 19th in the world is a little high for Turnberry; I would say it is top 50.

[Ran Morrissett]

This web site is the only place in the world where people could articulate being down on Turnberry.

As an architect, Mackenzie Ross was good but lacked his partner's (Tom Simpson) genius and that shows up in Turnberry's inland holes and in its green complexes which are good (the 13th one is underappreciated) but not great.

Especially for many Americans, Turnberry is their favorite as it enjoys such an inspiring setting - the five star hotel and lighthouse provided the WOW factor as Paul says - and that's understandable.

Still, from an architectural perspective, I can only look at Turnberry as a shade disappointing. For instance, Prestwick with its tons of unique features harkens for a return visit more so than Turnberry.

Turnberry should indeed be world top 20 but I agree with John M. that it is closer to 50 than 20, at least until they borrow some of the newly created ocean holes from the new course and create an Open composite course - and then we can debate if rating Composite courses is fair!

Cheers,

[Paul Richards]

I would have to agree the green complexes
at Prestwick and some other courses have
more character - humps, bumps, swales,
breaks, etc. - than at Turnberry.  But Turnberry doesn't need all of those to be
interesting.  Most of the interest lies in
getting TO the greens.

John M. brought up Machrihanish.  What a
wonderful place that is!  For all who have
traveled to Scotland, but haven't made the
trip here, put this one on your next itinerary!

While you are at it, get to Machrie as
well.  This is a bit like Prestwick since it
is true old-time golf - lots of blind shots,
and lots of humps and swales to the greens.
But for just plain fun on a golf course, Machrie has to rank near the top of anyone's list!

[Mark_Fine]

Unfortunately, I think many on this site are proving Fazio's claim to be true that golfers want 18 perfect golf holes for a course to be considered great!  Turnberry is a fantastic golf course and one of my favorites in the world.  It's easily in my top 20.  It doesn't have 18 "great" holes but it doesn't need 18 "great" holes to be as special as it is!!  

I just got back from playing three rounds of golf at another course that only has 8 or 9 "great" holes and it's ranked by everyone in the top five in the world!  Those 8 or 9 holes make it all worth while!

[Ted_Sturges]

To Mark Fine:

I agree with your comment that the course you just came from was "great" because of the 8 or 9 "great" holes it had. I don't think you need more than 8 or 9 great holes to have a course be considered exceptional.  You rate Turnberry as "easily" in your top 20.  So certainly the course must have 8 to 10 "great" holes.  I just played 2 rounds there and I'm struggling to identify that many.  Which holes do you favor so much there?

[Paul Richards]

Just played here on Saturday with 16 guys.

Each and every one of them said this was
the best golf course they played on our trip
and many even liked it better than Royal
County Down!

[Matt MacIver]

Just want to say, thanks to all you long-timers here for pushing threads like this up to the surface, makes for great reading for newcomers like me.  

[Jason Topp]

In my two trips to Scotland, I played Turnberry 4 times.  I don't know if my impressions would somehow be more refined now, but it was one of my favorites, along with North Berwick, Prestwick, and the Old Course.

I thought holes 4-10 were outstanding, as well as the stretch of 15-17 (I think).  In my view the 16th is one of the best holes using a water hazard anywhere.

My travel companions from the US definitely liked Turnberry the best in general.  I think the opinion is based on more than simply the hotel and the setting.  Turnberry is a nice balance for American tastes between the quirk of Prestwick (which many dislike) and the generally boring nature of Troon.  

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