[Adam_F_Collins]

I just started reading Jack's GCA book, Nicklaus by Design. In the forward, Pete Dye says:

"..Only after Jack gave birth to the notion of tying a name to a course did veteran, retired, and even deceased designers begin to get the credit due them."

And later:

"Jack's impact has been felt not only in the way golfers look at architects, but in the way golfers look at golf courses and in the way golf courses actually look."

Dye goes on to give Nicklaus credit for the first 'stadium' design at Glen Abbey, (and I've read his words to that effect in other articles as well.)

Now, I know that Nicklaus is not popular on this site as a designer, largely for reasons of his aesthetic, and perhaps his focus on providing level lies, and over-working the land. And many of the things that Jack has done might be associated with the 'decline' of great golf architecture in the opinions of many here.

But I would like to think that we should be able to separate the positive from the negative as we evaluate any designer's work and efforts. In fact, as this site has risen to some prominence, I think that we should look on an effort to remain objective as a responsibility. Too many interesting people have left this forum in disgust when opinions and biases have come to dominate over careful examination and respectful discourse.

Is Pete Dye correct when he says that Jack is the reason that Golf Course Architects began to have 'names' and 'signatures' that golfers actually cared about? Is Nicklaus the reason that golfers began to look at golf courses with more of a critical eye?

And if this is true, might we go on to say that one of the main reasons that we have all come to find interest enough to come here and share our obsession is because of the work and efforts of Jack Nicklaus?

We've heard Dye's opinion, what's yours?

[George Pazin]

There are plenty of historians on board who can provide better evidence than me, but I would think many would credit RTJ with the notion of a name designer.

Perhaps Pete was commenting more on how the average golfer views architects.

In the interest of full disclosure, I thoroughly enjoyed the one Nicklaus course I've played and look forward to playing more.

Also, Adam, there was a good bit of discussion of this book when it first came out, almost all of it positive.

[Tom_Doak]

I would credit Jack's career with making me interested in golf to begin with, but not necessarily making me "look at a golf course with a critical eye."  I think that was from reading other stuff.

However, I think Pete is certainly correct, that for most people in golf (as opposed to the golf business) Jack's start in golf architecture was their first real awareness of golf architecture.  Heck, nobody outside Columbus and Indianapolis ever heard of Pete Dye until he worked with Jack at Harbour Town and they had a tournament afterward.

It would be rude of me to dissect what I like and don't like about his work, considering our recent collaboration.  I'm putting a five-year grace period on that, until such time as whatever I say would not be considered a grab for credit at Sebonack.  However, one thing I have given him credit for previously is the start of what we now call "desert golf" at Desert Highlands.  There were other courses in the desert before that, but everything after Desert Highlands has looked more like it than like any of its predecessors.

[Bill_McBride]

Agreed about Desert Highlands.  I wrote a brief report on a trip to Arizona a year ago that went Apache Stronghold, Desert Mountain Apache, and Talking Stick North.  The Desert Mountain courses were a lot different from the Apache Stronghold and Talking Stick courses, residential community design with emphasis on carts vs courses in a pure desert environment with walking quite possible.  We rode at DM and I would have not have enjoyed trying to walk.

So I'm not sure I agree with Tom Doak's premise that all desert courses since Desert Highlands started look like Desert Highlands.  I think it's more a function of setting and overall land use.

[Peter Pallotta]

Adam,
good and interesting question/post. My guess if that Dye IS right about Nicklaus' influence, especially from Dye's own perspective, i.e. well-paid, well-regarded, full-time course architects are now 'name brands' in large part because of Nicklaus. When the first casual or semi-casual golfer decided, because of the Nicklaus name, to fly to Mexico to play golf, or to buy a home on a golf course, he started something that advertisers and marketers (and golf magazines) quickly picked up on, and a new kind of prestige was attached to a given designer's name. And, since a magazine like Golf Digest would be embarrassed to be ONLy a venue for marketing and advertising, it started making more and more value judgements (commensurate with more and more advertising) about these Mexican resorts and housing developments and prestige names; and the influence worked 'backwards' too, so that designers past and present got more and more attention (and all the benefits that come with it).  So, yes, I think Dye is right about Nicklaus, for better or worse. (Jack has always seemed to me a fine and decent man, but he is a wealthy man who lives and works with other wealthy men, so it is natural that he would tend to design courses aimed at still other older, wealthy men - and when that kind of course gets too much attention, I don't think it's good for the game, or for golf architecture in general).

Peter  

[Billsteele]

Adam-A couple of quick thoughts. Initially, if I'm not mistaken, Muirfield Village preceded Glen Abbey, and certainly was, if not a stadium golf course,  built with spectators in mind. Also, Jack's impact on maintenance standards has been well documented on this site and in other venues. Additionally, he has gone through seemingly distinct phases in his architecture. At one time, he was justly criticized for building brutally difficult courses that could be enjoyed by only the highest caliber of  golfer. To me, he is doing some of his best work now (more playable, more cohesive as a whole and more interesting). Finally, there seems to be a bit of a trade-off on raising the profile of the architect that you mention. There certainly is more prominence given to the architect. However, much of it is used to sell housing surrounding the courses that are being built (there are of course exceptions to this) or has little significance at all (for example, in my area, a club opened recently that is advertised as an "Arthur Hills Signature Course"...what in the world does that mean and why would anyone's opinion be influenced by that). I believe Jack has also influenced many tour players to dabble in architecture (either as "consultants" or hands on designers). The results are mixed.

[redanman]

A massive impact of JWN on gca is the genesis of the emphasis on argronomy and perfecting turf conditions.

It is much more than a coincidence, I believe more than any design work.

I love courses such as the diverse trio of Mayacoo Lakes in its original form with Des Muirhead, Desert Highlands which is indeed the grand-daddy of the desert and Mayacama - his finest work to date that I have been fortunate enough to have played. (A list that  does include the unexplained-to-me-crowd-favorite Muirfield Village GC - also a Des co-design at the very least).

RTJ had much more impact on name recognition than JWN.  We were made aware of RTJ courses in the early sixties as "course of quality".  I was aware of Ross, Wilson, Tillinghast and others (even Dye - I played Delray Dunes when it was brand new and had to know who designed it) before Jack and this was in FL.

[cary lichtenstein]

The biggest impact JWN has had is the real estate attached to his golf projects, you can look at both the Bears Club and The Ritz here in Jupiter.

The Bears Club has nothing under $5 million dollar houses, and if you have one of those you are in the low rent district.

If I were developing a golf course housing project, I think JWN gives you instant creditability at the high end.

[Garland Bayley]

I have to agree with redanman. I have essentially had two distinct golf periods in my life. When I was single, and after the family was raised. I was single at a time before Jack was designing courses. From that time I remember RTJ and RTJ Jr. being big names. I remember the names Tillinghast and Ross being attached to great courses. That was at at time when I was not actively gathering golf information the way I do now. Maybe Pete credits Jack so much, because his work with Jack brought his name more to the forefront.

[A.G._Crockett]

Dye's comments about Nicklaus are probably true, but probably stop short of real analysis of JN's role. The primary effect of Nicklaus has been to change the way golf courses are MARKETED, rather than built.  I can't see anything in Nicklaus' work, including his best work, that is seminal in any way.  Maybe others do.

Nicklaus has great responsibility for the big budget course, the growth of real estate-driven construction, and the cost of marketing a "name", and the higher costs to consumer that go with all of that.  That's great if you are a name architect who makes a lot more money than you would have made pre-Jack, but certainly a mixed blessing at best for the rest of us.

As to interest in GCA, again, Nicklaus' contribution is indirect at best.  We are still a very, very tiny subset of the golf world, even among passionate golfers, and I don't think most golfers look critically at a golf course's design, no matter who designed it.  They DO buy into the "name brand" concept, and Nicklaus has great responsibility for that.  Whether or not that is good is open to debate.  I know which side of the debate I am on.

[Robert Thompson]

It would be rude of me to dissect what I like and don't like about his work, considering our recent collaboration.  I'm putting a five-year grace period on that, until such time as whatever I say would not be considered a grab for credit at Sebonack.  

Tom: Interesting comment. I assume that given your profile and place in the business now, that you can no longer make the same public comments on designs that you once would have made without a second thought. If one doesn't comment on Jack's work, for whatever reason, that's a big hunk of the design business today.
Of course I think this fully makes sense given your ambitions, but this remark seems to place you a long way away from the brash upstart who published a book bashing and praising many much more established architects. I guess at some point idealism gives way to pragmatism.

[redanman]

Garland (and others)

Dye was at it for a whil when he hookd up with JWN.  JWN and PD did HT in about 1970-71 and did hte Irish/Scottish style place at the old playboy resort in about 1972. Nicklaus did MV and places like Mayacoo in 1974 and about 1975.

Dye did stuff in FL before I got out of H.S  in 1969 such as the aforementioned Delray Dunes (maybe 1967-68 at the latest) which is just a piece down the road from the wonderful Pine Tree by Wilson (1962ish?).  Some of us knew these places and their designers way back then, Dick Wilson did Doral, obviously, too and we the kids knew that fer gosh sakes.  We cared where we played our H.S. matches and for example drooled at the opportunity to play the course at Ballen Isles nee PGA National - all 3 Dick Wilson  course.  My dad was the foreman on hte original clubhouse construction job.  Golf was big in SoFL in the early 1960's and not just on the TEP-Gulf Stream/Seminole axis (which we locals were not in).

Before all of them when I first got the religion/disease, there was a special cachet to RTJ, Sr. (Whether one particularily likes or seeks out his work is irrelevant) and he aggressively marketed.  Hell, I knew about Mauna Kea very early from the BIG THREE TV show and All-star golf and the like where they mentioned the architects by name.

In fact RTJ Sr  assisted Bobby to some degree on Southern Highlands  in Las Vegas before he died.   I really ask the detractors to go play it and tell me it's not a quality golf course.

RTJ was pretty much the first modern name.  He did some crap, I will admit but he did some goood stuff and marketed superbly.  

[Tom_Doak]

Robert:

I have grown up a little, although if you ask most other architects you'll find they still think I'm pretty outspoken.

I feel like I've reserved the right to say whatever I want, but I am not looking for opportunities to say as much these days.  Ten years ago, when I was trying to make a point about design, the best way for me to make that point was to take a famous course and show how it did [or didn't] succeed.  But now that people pay attention to my courses, I can lead by example, so I don't have to critique in order to get my point across.

I didn't agree to any concrete rules about what I could say or not say when we made our agreement at Sebonack, but I have made it a point of honor not to "talk out of school" about what went on.  Someday, maybe, but probably not for several years at the minimum.

As to critiquing the rest of Jack's work, I don't know how much of it I will see.  I must admit I'm curious to see what he will take away from our collaboration, but it's more important to me what I take away from it and how I apply it:  if he doesn't go the same direction, then he's just wrong.    

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

AG Crockett,

You'll be surprised to know that I agree with you.

So now, we're even.

[Robert Thompson]

Robert:

I have grown up a little, although if you ask most other architects you'll find they still think I'm pretty outspoken.

I'm sure that is the case, thus your continued participation on this board. I guess it would be difficult to be an iconoclast while also fighting for some of the best projects available. I'm sure there's a fine line between being colourful and being deemed difficult and too outspoken.  As I said previously, it just looks to me like you are being pragmatic, which is perfectly fine. Suits the circumstances.

As for me, I can't really say whether Jack's recent work is any good. My only measure of his recent work is Ocean Hammock, which is terrific, and The King and the Bear, which is marginal at best.

[Jim Nugent]

I must admit I'm curious to see what he will take away from our collaboration, but it's more important to me what I take away from it and how I apply it:  if he doesn't go the same direction, then he's just wrong.    

Tom, you may not wish to answer this one.  Could we see another Doak/Nicklaus collaboration in the future?  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There seems to be a triumverate of featured targets for bashing--Nicklaus, Rees, and Fazio.  Some of it may be well deserved, but it seems as though everything done by these guys is inherently bad because they are involved.  I play a couple Nicklaus courses regularly--they are excellent challenges.  Unlike the majority of courses in SoCal built within the past 30 years, you cannot play a Nicklaus course braindead.  I find his courses to require some thinking.  The Resort Couse at PGA West has really good shot values.  It may not be CPC, but not all courses have great property.  Is it always bad to try building a top quality course on a flat featureless piece of property?  Moving an incredible amount of dirt on a good property is one thing, but PGA West became a players desert mecca because of Nicklaus and Dye.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's a recent story about a new JN course under construction near Naples, FL- Old Corkscrew GC. Tom Doak will be pleased to read the following excerpt:

Nicklaus revises his vision in Estero

By Greg Hardwig

Wednesday, December 14, 2005

ESTERO — Jack Nicklaus started on The Retreat, but a slumping economy shelved what would be Southwest Florida's first stand-alone Nicklaus Signature Design in Estero.

Now developer Franz Rosinus has revived it.

Saturday, Nicklaus toured what will be Old Corskcrew Golf Club, with visions of four or five years ago in his mind, but updating it with what he has picked up in the meantime.

Old Corkscrew, which is located seven miles east of Interstate 75 on Corkscrew Road, will play 7,300 yards from the back tees, 6,700 from the members tees, 6,100 from the seniors, and 5,400 or so from the ladies.

Nicklaus and his team toured the course for three hours on Saturday. He planned to go over only a few holes, but ended up touring all 18.

"I would say I remembered at least four or five trees," he joked.

"No, I remembered most of it," he said.

Nicklaus, who has designed Bear's Paw in Naples in 1980 and co-designed The Club at TwinEagles in the late 1990s and will co-design the second course at The Verandah Club in Fort Myers with his son Jack, will try something new on this layout, partly because of what it avails itself to, and partly because he wants to make every property unique.

"I'm going to experiment with a different kind of bunkering concept," he said, detailing how he would have higher features on the inside of the bunkers instead of the outside. "It's a different concept.

"I think it'll work here. I've never done it, but I like to do things that I haven't done. It gives different looks to golf courses."

"You try to create a uniqueness to each property, and certainly that's what we want to do here," he added. "It's not always easy to do."

But with the playing part of his career over — and what a career it was with 18 major championships, etc. — he can focus even more on this part.

"It's a legacy that I leave, as I leave playing the game, I really enjoy and love doing what I'm doing," he said. "I have the ability to improve and continue to better that because my body doesn't care about that."

www.oldcorkscrew.com

[A.G._Crockett]

There seems to be a triumverate of featured targets for bashing--Nicklaus, Rees, and Fazio.  Some of it may be well deserved, but it seems as though everything done by these guys is inherently bad because they are involved.  I play a couple Nicklaus courses regularly--they are excellent challenges.  Unlike the majority of courses in SoCal built within the past 30 years, you cannot play a Nicklaus course braindead.  I find his courses to require some thinking.  The Resort Couse at PGA West has really good shot values.  It may not be CPC, but not all courses have great property.  Is it always bad to try building a top quality course on a flat featureless piece of property?  Moving an incredible amount of dirt on a good property is one thing, but PGA West became a players desert mecca because of Nicklaus and Dye.

Robert,
The original premise of the thread was Dye's crediting of Nicklaus with elevating the profile of GCA's in general.  I think Dye is right, but I think it has relatively little to do with the merits of Nicklaus designs, and everything to do with the name of JN attached to a course.  That's not especially critical of JN courses, just a take on the Dye quotes.

It would be a real stretch for Pete Dye to credit the design work per se of Jack Nicklaus with elevating the profession, wouldn't it?  That's not necessarily a knock on Nicklaus as a GCA, but Pete Dye, he ain't!

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:  Officially there haven't been any Doak/Nicklaus collaborations, just one Nicklaus/Doak.  I wouldn't bet on seeing any more, but then who would have bet on seeing the first one?

Realistically, the difficulty in collaborations is that a certain amount of time is spent on politics rather than design.  If I only have time to do three or four courses a year, that might preclude me from taking the fourth job.  So I'm not likely to agree to collaborate unless it's a job I really, really want to do (or a person I really, really want to collaborate with), and the client really, really wants the collaboration.

Steve S.:  I don't have any idea why I should be pleased to read that press release.  I've heard that quote about "different looks to golf courses" a lot over the past two years, but Jack makes it sound like he's just randomly trying different ideas, which is surely not the case.  Or, you could take it to mean that he's building the same basic golf course (strategically) with only a variety of different looks.

If anything, I would take it as a backhanded slap, if Jack thought that Sebonack is just a Nicklaus course with a Doak "look".  It's one of the main reasons I wonder what he will take away from our collaboration, because I'm not sure if he recognized why we were doing some of the things we were trying to do out there.  Also, some of our input goes back to the routing of the course, and there's no telling what Jack and Jim Lipe and the rest of his team will take away from that part.  

I know I didn't have much impact on Jack's thoughts about strategy; he sometimes went along with my point of view, but usually on the basis of variety.  We just have two different perspectives on that subject, and what makes the most sense for one of us sometimes doesn't make much sense for the other.  We seemed to be most in agreement on the par-3 holes and the short par-4's, I guess because his abilities as a player didn't affect the strategy as much on those holes.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

Perhaps this part of the excerpt should have been highlighted:

"I'm going to experiment with a different kind of bunkering concept," he said, detailing how he would have higher features on the inside of the bunkers instead of the outside. "It's a different concept.

Steve

[A.G._Crockett]

AG Crockett,

You'll be surprised to know that I agree with you.

So now, we're even.

This ranks with the best compliments I've gotten.  Thanks, Patrick!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

More from the mellowing JN on his new public Old Corkscrew GC in SW FL:

from news-press.com


Nicklaus fine-tunes new Estero course
By Seth Soffian
Originally posted on December 11, 2005




Warmed by glasses of champagne and spirits, and satiated by grilled shrimp, beef tenderloin and cherries jubilee, a gathering of investors soaked up the charm of golf legend Jack Nicklaus.

In town Saturday for a few final alterations to Old Corkscrew Golf Club, a course he is designing in Estero, Nicklaus regaled the crowd with a discussion of the product he soon will be delivering.

"I certainly don't want it to be too tough," said the 65-year-old North Palm Beach resident, famous for his record 18 titles in golf's four annual major championship events. "I want it to be fun and enjoyable. That's the whole name of the game. Frankly, the older I get, the easier I make them."

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()