[Chris Munoz]

"Other - The liner from the construction of the greens sticks out on a lot of holes Sometimes you have to chip over it when your on the fringe."

Mike could you be more specific on this problem...I am thinking, the greens were built to USGA specs and the black liner that is used is starting to come up to the surface.

Here is the question to everyone on GCA....What is the purpose of the black liner used on USGA greens??

Happy Thanksgiving

Chris Munoz

[Mike McGuire]

Chris -

Its a wicking or moisture barrier that prevents the soil of surrounds from sucking moisture out of a greens rootzone.

[Chris Munoz]

You are correct Mike....

Chris

[Matt_Ward]

I have had the opportunity to go to Globe and play Apache Stronghold on three (3) separate occasions. I don't go back to sites unless I believe they have someting to offer.

AS does have a clear and distinct design that is clearly unique and at times thrilling.

However --

*The turf situation is still a slow and unrelenting issue. I don't plan on returning untill there has been substanial and consistent progress on this front. Simply giving the course a pass because of its architectural pedigree or that the holes "look" grand is not enough in my book.

*More importantly, the local efforts at running the course are quite frankly clueless on getting its act together -- from both a marketing standpoint and from an internal staffing dimension. Globe is not exactly "on the beaten track" and unless you are a diehard architecturally junkie there's really no reason to leave the immediate surroundings of the Valley of the Sun and head 90 minutes or more in that direction.

*I really believe the course has the possibilities in being something of distinction -- clearly it could be among the top 2-3 public courses in the state. But the time has long since passed that AS can trumpet it's Doak connection and to the rightful fanfare that came when it opened several years ago.

I can't dismiss conditioning to the extent that others so easily and willingly do. AS has plenty of potential but the same thing can be said for a number of other courses in the USA.

I'm taking the Missouri approach to any future visit -- show me !

[Joe Hancock]

Matt,

Your points of consideration illustrate the difference between golf architecture and golf as a business. The customer in you is speaking loud and clear.

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

Make no mistake -- I do like the course but the architectural junkies and fan clubs on this site simply look away from what is truly a mindboggling development.

The San Carlos Apache simply don't know how to elevate the profile of their facility. Going through several superintendents doesn't make me all that warm and fuzzy about its future either. You have some clear turf issues and some equally clear marketing / branding issues.

AS is a wonderful layout but golf is not played in some theory world. It's played with real turf and real follow-ups. Neither of which is happening now.

A pity indeed given the vast potential that is there.

[David Kelly]

Matt,

Nobody rates Apache Stronghold higher than I do but I won't be going again until I hear reports from people who have recently been there that the conditioning has been substantially improved.

Having played it there is absolutely no reason to go there again on spec since it is in the middle of nowhere, it has a bad hotel, bad food and a bad casino.

[Ari Techner]

I would make the drive.  I went about 2 hours out of my way to play there about a year ago and I am very glad I made the trip.  The conditioning were not good but I still enjoyed myself alot and I am very glad to have seen what I consider to be an excellent design in a state that is severly lacking in that area.  

[Chris Burgard]

I find it interesting that the ones who still seem head over heels about Apache Stronghold are GCAers. Must be the Doak entourage. Maybe they know something the rest of the Arizona market doesn't. Or maybe they are so focused on design they are able to ignore what have long been agronomic problems.

I need to go back, not having been there since Dec. 2003, but it was pretty brutal then. Would welcome a detailed update. I know they are trying hard and that the layout and routing are amazing.

Mr. Klein,

Colour me slightly confused.

Apparently only the Tom Doak contingent of GCAers are "head over heels" about Apache Stronghold, yet your magazine has the course rated as the best public course in the state for 2005.

Does this mean that all of raters for Golfweek are "Tom Doak Butt-boys" ??  

Just curious,
Chris

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