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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Execution Based Course?
« on: December 24, 2005, 11:17:40 AM »
In the ANGC thread, Jim Thompson replied:

"How 'bout because it is a one dimensional, ultra linear, non-strategic, execution based, over dressed, over greened, pimped out, tree riddle, over grown pine grove which, now serves to remind us that great greens cannot carry the full burden of a golf course!"

I understand the sentiment, especially when all those factors are put together, but wonder what great tournament course isn't mostly "execution based?" And, does ANGC have less strategy now than say, Pine Valley, rightfully held up as a great course?

Three questions:

1. - What percent of a courses quality should be related to executing various shots?  Golly, wouldn't it be about 90% skill and 10% strategy almost anywhere?  And isn't strategy successful ONLY when accompanied by execution?  (How many times have you hit an iron off the tee, only to hit that OB?)

2. - Has the ANGC strategy changed for the worse?  Cases in point -

a) Playing to the right part of the green has always been the major thing at Augusta.  What has added length changed about that?

b) The openess led to one strategy off the tee - bomb it, and the long hitters (almost) always win.  Does the new rough and narrowness actually introduce tee shot strategies over what the course once was, in tempting players to throttle back a few tee shots and giving better design balance to rewarding accuracy? Isn't that a better thing for a tournament based course?

c) Some changes now balance the reward of fade and draw more than before.  Isn't that a better thing for a tournament based course?

3 - Can a "strategy" be restored to match today's technology while substantially changing the original design elements/physcal features of the hole?

Case in point is the addition of rough and trees on the right of 13 at ANGC. When designed as a sub 500 yard par 5, players had a strategic tee shot choice -

a) Draw near the creek to shorten to a  450 or so par 4, reachable with a long iron, or
b) Play safe, well wide of the creek to a 50 yard fw, with an extra 25 yards or so left to green that made it questionable whether you could get there, esp. with the hanging lie.

Fast forward to 2005, with a 535 yard 13th with the green and creek substantially the same.  

The tee shot offers a bit less choice.

a)The draw around the corner still flirts with the creek and leaves about 200 yards - which is now a six iron or so.  
b) With a hanging lie rough and trees now on the right side, there is less "option" to "play safe" other than guarding against an overdraw.  

So what would be the results if no trees were added right?
1 - The hanging lie is probably gone, since lower fw cuts allow the ball to roll back down the hill. Some players might use the contour as part of strategy to hit  a "safe draw" using contours to get more distance.
2- The shot will still be an iron of only 210 - 225 yds for todays pros. Playing safe away from the creek adds 10-20 yards and 1-2 clubs, and possibly no strokes, while taking a two stroke penalty out of play.  

That sounds like too much reward for taking the hazard out of play to me.

The possible results with rough, hanging lie and a few trees possibly ie to "restore" a reduced chance of getting to the green in two, esp. if a tree forces a layup.  The net result is that the risk of playing near the creek with a draw around the corner is rewarded more.  This is as the hole was strategically intended to play, no?  

Aside from a dream that the ball never went further than it did in (you pick the year) and that no course ever deviates from its original (or ultimate form in (you pick the year)), do some of the changes at Augusta - the one course in the world that should be designed for a tournament event exclusively, and the one with a heritage of almost constant change- make any sense?

Do the changes on this hole "restore" the intent of Jones and MacKenzie even while altering its form?  If not, what would?

« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 11:23:30 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2005, 11:22:56 AM »
Strategy only works if you have the skill to execute it.  Therefore, strategic golf courses are execution based.

Non-strategic golf courses have no choice but to be execution based.

Hell, GOLF is execution based.

I say Boo to that snippet of Jim Thompson's decree.


John Kavanaugh

Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2005, 11:39:51 AM »
Jeff,

Thank you...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2005, 11:46:12 AM »
Jeff,

Thank you...

You are welcome!  All I am trying to do is to start some golf architecture discussion, devoid of personalities (GCA "X" sucks) and while using ANGC based on your thread as an example, devoid of the usual bias for or against certain courses and designers based on emotion, rather than cool, rational discussion.

For the record, I agree with those who say that ANGC's history make it what it is more than its design.  Really, the hillside site was hard to use, with only Amen corner being "great" natural golf holes.  And, while I love the idea of its former strategies with wide fws, I just don't know if they ALL really work for tournament golf in todays world as they were.

As usual, my "thought provoking" question hasn't really generated any "deep thoughts," just a n emotional boo and thank you.....I am really out of touch on this board.  John, you do better - you know how to push the buttons here as well as anyone!

Merry Xmas Eve to all........
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 11:49:08 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2005, 11:57:48 AM »
The reality is that strategy is more than angles in today's game, its also about controlling distance.  From what I can tell, controlling your distance at Augusta is as important as anywhere else.  Jeff, your example of the "new" 13th at Augusta is a great illustration.

I'll be the first to agree that width is much more fun than narrow for my game.  Then again, I'm a 10 capper that can't control my ball.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2005, 01:15:37 PM »
Jeff:

Success on every course goes back to execution, but to me, a great course gives a player who isn't QUITE as good a chance to win if he plays his way around it flawlessly while the other guy makes a mistake or two.  Otherwise, the best test of golf would just be an extremely penal course where a mistake was offered no chance of recovery ... like a US Open set-up.

Augusta used to have that.  Being a long bomber helped, but guys with great short games also had a good shot at winning, in fact nearly every kind of player won at Augusta at some point in the last seventy years.

I think the changes to the course have changed that.  Up until the changes, Jack Nicklaus believed he could still win The Masters, if he played perfectly to his skills and the other guys made mistakes -- that's why he hated the changes so much, he thinks they took away his chance to win the tournament at sixty.  [That's just my hunch, he didn't confide it in me.  :) ]  Ben Crenshaw is another who thinks they've just wrecked the golf course, taking away some of the places he used to hit the ball to his advantage.

Of course, it's not ALL about the changes to Augusta -- the equipment has changed dramatically, too, and that may be the factor that's helping the bombers more than the changes to the course.  But, as any short and accurate hitter will tell you, adding length to courses is not helping them.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2005, 02:22:27 PM »
Tom,

I really have been to only one Masters after the first cut was introduced, so I don't know if it allows recovery or not.  But assuming it added some but not brutal difficulty, unless at places like 13, I think I agree that the long bombers really never paid for their mistakes at the old Augusta.

If "the other guy" makes a mistake or two, but it doesn't hurt him, how does that help the lesser player win?  And your statement there and about Jack sort of confirms the idea about execution is really what its all about.

If you limited your statement about every kind of player winning over the last 70 years to the last 15 years, would your opinion change?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2005, 02:56:51 PM »
Jeff - don't be so hard on yourself..probably not a lot of people on the board today

and I am not feeling well so I'm not up to any real thinking today!

merry xmas
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

TEPaul

Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2005, 06:02:03 PM »
"Success on every course goes back to execution, but to me, a great course gives a player who isn't QUITE as good a chance to win if he plays his way around it flawlessly while the other guy makes a mistake or two.  Otherwise, the best test of golf would just be an extremely penal course where a mistake was offered no chance of recovery ... like a US Open set-up."

That's as good a description of what real and over-all strategy is on a golf course as you can find, particularly a very good strategic one. Most think of strategy as only execution based in the context of a single player but that's not the way golf works. Thinking better than a player who may be technically executing shots better than you but not thinking as well and overreaching too much is what it's mostly all about. That's the definition of the old tortoise and hare analogy. If it were otherwise then simply shot executing skill would always win but on a good strategic course good technical ball striking with poor thought will expose the player so much more than on a course that's not well designed.

This post doesn't really make a whole helluva lot of sense. Oh well.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 06:34:38 PM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2005, 06:47:07 PM »
b) The openess led to one strategy off the tee - bomb it, and the long hitters (almost) always win.  
3 - Can a "strategy" be restored to match today's technology while substantially changing the original design elements/physcal features of the hole? Jeff, Wouldn't a firmer maintenance presentation result in balls finding places less desirable than anticipated? Thereby combating tech.

 the one course in the world that should be designed for a tournament event exclusively Is that how the members feel? Really?

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2005, 08:36:11 PM »
Jeff,

I think there is something wrong with the success of round being overly dependent on the execution of 14-15 tee shots.  An undue advantage is given to length as it relates to ability to attack or utilize a slope or contour of a green.  Also as fairways become narrower a greater demand is placed on the ability to execute a shaped shot to create an angel of approach into a given pin location.  I'm not saying that Corey Pavin should get an even up against a Tiger.  What I'm trying to say is that ideally he would have an opportunity to get left or right enough to shape his five wood vs Tiger's 8/9 iron.

I would also suggest that in the days of the all tight Augusta more chances were taken to get to pins from less than favorable positions, many times resulting in additional strokes from being wrong sided, and that now flyers and rough and tree blocked shots are thrown to known safe zones.  I think it is much better golf to burden the player, regardless of skill level, with the choice of birdie or triple based on performance of next shot rather than the burden of oops take my medicine and make par/ bogie and move on to next hole.  A crap shoot is always more interesting than a long grind in my book.  Severe greens are crucial in developing this condition but without alternative routes, angles, or approaches (by that I mean run up vs. aerial mortar attack) those same greens force the grind it out condition.  Would ANGC be better with more severe but smaller bunkers that left lanes of approach?

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Paul Payne

Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2005, 09:15:19 PM »
Jeff,

I feel a bit like David vs Goliath here but I need to ask you these questions.

I start by taking issue with your essential premise that a course should be based on 90% execution And 10% strategy. I believe thats how we end up with courses that we are all in someway dissatisfied with such as Augusta. Strategy needs to play a far greater role right off the tee.

I will contrast this with Sand Hills since that is one I know welll enough to compare. Sand Hills I would argue places a far higher value on strategy, execution certainly must follow. For example, at SH you could have a fairway that you literally could not miss if you tried, possibly 150 yards wide. The point is to decide where to play your tee shot.

Furthermore the tee strategy may not hold the same from one day to the next. The pin placement on those voluptuous greens can be dramatic enough to force you to play the other side of the fairway for a decent chance to stick it close the very next time out.

I could see how Augusta may have been that way in the past but there is a fundamental probelm with what they are doing there. In order for strategy to play a role off the tee you must have reasonable choices. The longer they stretch their holes, the less difference it makes between left side and right. It is now simply a matter of staying within the fairway. I am not arguing that this cannot have a great impact on the outcome of the second shot, I am just saying that the strategy becomes one more of staying the center rather than playing the options.

To see this you only have to look at #18. They lengthened it in order to keep the fairway bunker in play. With the longer hole however the tee shot is simply a long corridor between the trees. The resulting strategy is basically stay down the middle, and if you have enough, take the bunker, otherwise layup short and take your medicine. There is really no alternative.

In my opinion this is what Augusta is becoming more and more about. I just feel golf should be more than that.

Merry Christmas.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2005, 09:41:40 PM »
Jeff,
Merry Christmas.
I tend to agree with your thoughts.  IMHO , Ideally strategy would comprise a larger percentage of the professional game than it does today.  But reality says differently.  Those guys will still hit 8 and 9 irons into hole #11 and they will still be on top of the hill at #1.  And when their approach shots are coming straight down on the greens.....well....only strategy left is where the ball is on the ground and that is on the green.  I am sure, as TD says that Ben C and others don't like the changes....I don't either as far as how they affect the average length player that depends on course management more so than raw length......On holes 2, 9,10,11,15(all downhill)....a 320 yard drive might be standard  JMO
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 09:43:11 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Execution Based Course?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2005, 11:47:41 PM »
It's too bad we have to think about strategy and execution in golf design as if the only players were the 0.1% who play at the highest level.  For the rest of us, understanding the strategy and hopefully hitting the ball where we would like to is paramount.  That's 99.9% of the golf population.

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