[James Edwards]

Im sorry i could not post a sketch of this but i will try and simply describe what i have sketched..

If you draw a typical bar chart, x axis and y axis and label holes 1 to 18 along the horizontal and the difficulty on the vertical - how would the flow/rhythm look on your ""ideal golf course"" in terms of how the course ""should"" play...

1.  should the line rise from its lowest point on holes 1,2 and 3 gaining momentum until hole 18, so in effect the line is straight diagonal?  - not for me....

2.  should it gain momentum towards holes 6 and then drop to hole 8 before climbing to hole 18?

many different permutations....
you get my point though i hope.......

Id be interested in your sketches if you can post them or send them to me.... with your thoughts... or just your thoughts...

Faldo has gone on record as saying he likes to have a very difficult opening hole because that would encouarge golfers to warm up before they play...

If you drew this line for your HOME golf club, how would it look - the great thing about this is that its your opinion!  it will form a good survey of what we (as golfers) would like the golf courses we play on to be designed like in terms of difficulty and may be good research for architects (of which im one)

your thoughts

james

[ForkaB]

http://www.how-did-i-do.co.uk

James

Look up the above link and you will get more data than you could ever dream of.  Just taking the results of one competition at Dornoch (Sinclair Cup, 36 hole one day event, plus to 18 HCP, skewed to mid-single figures), I get the following:

Hole   Difficulty Ranking

1       14
2        4
3        9
4        2
5       12
6        7
7        8
8       10
9       17
10     11
11      1
12     18
13     13
14      3
15     15
16      6
17     16
18      5

I didn't play in this last year, so I can't vouch for the relative difficulty (although probably slightly easier than normal, given the CSS) or weather conditions.

Hopes this helps

Rich

[mike_malone]

 
 
 H                        *  *                    *  *  *
                                     *
         *          *
      *          *                       *
 M            *                                                      *
                                                                             *
             *          *                     *                    *

 L

       1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12/13/14/15/16/17/18

   My best guess for my home course. This is roughly based on the handicap ratings.

[Steve Pieracci]

I prefer more of a step function.  The first six holes equally easy, the next six the most difficult, and the final six of medium difficulty.  

This allows a warm up, sufficient challenge, and possible good finish to bring you back for more.  

[tonyt]

Not wanting to throw cold water on the idea, but this is the type of exercise a lot of club golfers would eagerly sit in the clubhouse and answer definitively the same way they would sit and moan about par 3 directions and lengths, consecutive holes or some other arbitrary theory based formula, and neither debate would once mention actual hole quality, use of site and the overall flow of the routing.

If I had to jump in this pool, I'd say it can be disappointing when none of the last 3-4 holes on a course are particularly difficult or at least of a type that allow more for nerves and score changes.

[Paul Payne]

OK,

I'm all for having a greater sense of flow throughout a course, but I'm not sure it is tied to the holes handicap level.

How many of you guys will shoot par on the #1 and #2 holes only to bogey the #16 hcp? I know I've done this enough to actually notice this pattern and on more than one course.

Possibly a mental thing, possibly lack of concentration, however I happen to think it has more to do with how a hole sets up and what makes it difficult.

I for one, am not a long driver (230-250), but I am very good at hitting the fairway, even on whichever side I choose. Since I am not long, I am also very good from 170 to 210 yards out. Many #1 handicap holes are not only long but have hazards placed for both the drive and the approach. These happen to be my strengths.

I might struggle more on a short-ish par 4 where I am left at 130 on the approach with a small green. I could bungle that any number of ways.

My long winded point is that I feel rythm has more to do with the variety of set-up both off the tee and for the approach. Rythm should require you to re-think your strategy on every hole because it presents a completely new set of circumstances.

When you think of it this way, the series could be easy, hard, it could even be two par three's in a row (God forbid) as long as the visuals and the strategy keep changing.

[George Pazin]

I don't have any preference, other than some variety.

I don't like this type of course:

H    ********************


M


L

     1                             18

 

[Bill_McBride]

I rather like the Dr MacKenzie plan, except for the change of #1 and #2 Pasatiempo to par 4s over the years due to the perception that #1 was too easy and the fear of hitting cars on #2  .  That is, easy holes to get away and get warmed up.  Then some crackers mixed in with easier holes.  Finally get down to it around #15 through #18 for exciting finishes to match play.

But it really all boils down to the site and what works best, right?

[James Edwards]

Thank you for your thoughtful replies (except georges  )

ok,
should the 9th and 18th be harder than the others?
should the 1st and the 10th be easier than others?

your thoughts?

this mean the curve would rise and fall on both 9's creating holes 4 and 5 and 13 and 14 as the toughest... would this make sense?

[Joe Hancock]

Of all the "design philosophies" put forth by this esteemed group, this one I'm really struggling to grasp. Am I alone in thinking that each site would have an ideal routing that would have nothing to do with a formula dictated by degree of difficulty?

I can only imagine how much disappoint there would be when one marries themselves to something like this, only to have it blown out of the water once the clubhouse selection is made.

Joe

[Paul Payne]

J.H.

I agree with you completely on the land itself dictating much of what the layout will be. I think however the architect still has to make some wise decisions as well as the owner/members when it comes to the final design.

You would not for instance, want a course that played essentially the same shaped par four for many holes in a row. That would become boring and force the design in order to differentiate one hole from the next.

This is what I mean by rythm. The course has to progress with a set-up and strategy that contually evolves to challenge in different ways. The changes can be subtle at times but they have to be there.

[Joe Hancock]

Paul,

I agree. The thing that I can't grasp is setting foot on a property, looking for a way to have the round reach a cresendo on hole #16, based entirely on it's degree of difficulty. That's the formulaic mindset I can't relate to here.

I talk to Mike DeVries about this stuff a lot, and Greywalls always finds its way into the discussion. Unavoidable features like views of Lake Superior, very undulating land and rock outcroppings all are part of the rhythm and flow of the routing. The degree of difficulty is sometimes lessened on purpose due to other drama  going on around the site. In fact, that course was a challenge to try to keep it from being too much stimulation...visually, strategically and otherwise.

Joe

[Paul Payne]

Joe,

I agree 100% on that part of your assesment, that you cannot and should not base rythm of a course on some kind of handicap formula. In fact you could prbably ruin a good piece of property by doing that.  

I think that was the gist of my earlier comment is that IMO rythm is something other than that. Partly because the handicap of a hole does not necessarily reflect upon how it is played or the strategy it requires.

[Paul Payne]

Joe,

By the way, have you been up to Greywalls?

I went up this past August with a friend from the Twin Cities. I felt I had a distinct advantage for one reason..... I grew up in Marquette, I had seen those views all my life. I really do think it gave me an edge that day. Anyway, we are planning a rematch for late spring, he's going to wear blinders.

[Bill_McBride]

That sounds like playing Capilano in Vancouver.  On the front nine you play three holes straight downhill with Vancouver harbor dead straight ahead.  On the back nine you play two or three holes with large mountain peaks dead in the center of the fairway in the opposite direction.  Wonderful routing by Stanley Thompson!

In terms of difficult finishes it doesn't get much better.  #15 is a long par 4 away from the clubhouse and toward one of those mountain peaks.  #16 back toward the clubhouse 220 yard par 3.  #17 another long par 4 back toward the mountain peaks.  #18 long, difficult par 5 (560?) back to an elevated green by the clubhouse.  The long par 4s play slightly downhill, the returning par 3 and par 5 slightly uphill.

I played there in 2004, the same year played TOC and North Berwick.  Capilano wasn't far behind.  

[Ian Andrew]

James,

Different rythems work at different sites. While I think rythem is very important, I also think this is found through instict and not a formula.

Merion is like a three stage play. The opening has plenty of challenge, but offers many opportunities to score. The short middle pressures, since you know you need to score well with the last stage looming. The last stage is full of tough and difficult holes, the player faces the anxiety of holding on to preserve a round. That is one typew of rythem.

Cypress Point is like a novel We are lead in with an exciting and intriging start. The round continues as a slow build with many exciting parts still building towards the promiced climax. The climax occur with the holes on the ocean. The last hole is the conclusion after the climax where everything is wrapped up neatly.

Bandon Dunes is like a journey of discovery. The third example was planned by David Kidd (nothing like playing there with him to learn from). At Bandon Dunes the player knows they will play holes on the ocean. What I like about Bandon Dunes is he gives you long views to what is to come and waits till he can present the ocean in the view he likes the most. He takes you away, builds more anticipation, and takes you back looking down the other coast. And finally returns you back to the begining.

I wish I could think of more examples, but they are the three I think are most clear.

[James Edwards]

Ian, All,

Thank you for your interesting thoughts...

I think that my original post has been slightly confused along the way or maybe i just didnt explain it well enough...  

I certainly not trying to attach a formula to a golf course, far from it.... but every golf course can/will have a line drawn using that formula...

and i was asking how his flow would look at your home clubs and then you would think it should look in your ideal situation.

that solely is the line im interested in.... and site characteristics have nothing to do with it at this stage... its purely the black and white line produced analysing the flow of difficulty...

[tonyt]

ok,
should the 9th and 18th be harder than the others?
should the 1st and the 10th be easier than others?

your thoughts?

Even if not wanting to stamp formulas onto golf courses, this thought has crossed the line by a long way. I hope all the average architects reach their death without ever heavily contemplating this template even vaguely.

I'll add a point like I made in my original post. Anyone who is remotely likely to consider these principles is among those who will also have what they consider other norms (non binding perhaps, but subconciously quite ingrained) regarding other norms and principles to adhere to. Collectively, they will destroy a golf course.

The people who dislike any lack of uniformity in the number of 3s and 5s per nine, consecutive 3s or 5s, ending a nine on a 3, dismiss similar length holes or directions of play between similar type holes without even looking at the design or reasoning of why they were built where they are and how they fit in are exactly the same type of people who would sit in the grillroom and discuss ideals about the distribution of the easy and difficult passages of play throughout the round. I find much of the discussion in this thread to be very saddening.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()