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Doug Braunsdorf

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Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« on: June 09, 2005, 11:18:35 PM »
I am interested in receiving feedback and opinions from the collective braintrust on here regarding Tom Weiskopf as an architect.  

SWWOG had Player vs. Weiskopf at Double Eagle on the other night.  

It didn't strike me as anything particularly special, from the aerial and ground views.  

I noticed a few forced carries, some risk reward, reachable par fives, driveable par 4s

Some use of the diagonal also.  

Also noticed an interpretation of the Spectacles bunkering.

I don't know what John McConnell's charges were to Weiskopf when designing the course, but is this style very representative of his work?

What are some opinions on his courses?  Are they well received?  Are they fun to play, for both good players and high handicappers?  

Does he use any ideas from "classic" architcture?  

Thank you all in advance-

DRB
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2005, 12:04:36 AM »
Doug

I have played 4 Weiskopf or  Weiskopf/Moorish courses:

1. TPC Scottsdale
2. Seven Canyons in Sedona
3. Vistoso in Tucson
4. Silverleaf in Scottsdale

Most of his work is in the Southwest with newer stuff in opening soon in WY and MT. Double Eagle may be the closest of his work to the East. It was highly regarded when it opened. It is #7 in OH and #68 in US according to GD.

His trademark is the short par4. I have enjoyed his courses,some      more than others. Silverleaf & Seven Canyons were better for me than the other two.

I think Loch Lomond in Scotland is his most highly regarded course. He has turned out to be a much better architect than many would have thought. He enjoys his work and takes it seriously and studiously from what I have read.

I know he was signed to do a course in the Naples,FL area but it is on hold.


Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jason Topp

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Re:Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2005, 12:12:27 AM »
I've played a few Weiskopf courses.  I think the closing stretch at the Phoenix Open is pretty representative of his design themes.  I believe each course I have played features a driveable par four, at least one split fairway and wide fairways in general.  His courses are straightforward fair tests of golf that are playable for most.  I've enjoyed them, but never have been inspired by them.  

Wayne Freeman

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Re:Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2005, 12:22:00 AM »
Doug-  I was fortunate enough to play Double Eagle last October and thought it was terrific.  The story I heard was that John McConnell was a member of The Golf Club and that he was upset that there were too many members there (125). He wanted the number reduced to 75- when they wouldn't do it he decided to build his own course and purchased 500 acres to build his own course. His house is the only one on the property and even though there is so much land there you feel very much a part of the layout at all times.  The course is very easy to walk.  I don't think the T.V. did it justice at all.  There is great variety-  doglegs right and left, a couple of great par 4's with incredible carries over canyons, and some good scoring opportunites like the 17th which I also drove and made birdie on. ( Weiskopf feels every course should have a driveable par 4).  They have no tee markers there, so when I played with the head pro David Shimko, I just told him I wanted to play a length of about 6800-6900 and he set up every tee.  The course was is immaculate shape. I don't think I've ever heard a ball come off a fairway like I did there-  the sound was so perfect.   I understand the membership is miniscule ( could be around 40), and apparently when the course first opened Mr. McConnell had a couple of maintenance guys follow every group around the course to resod every divot and did the same on the practice range every night ( for 2 years!).  I really enjoyed my day there- David is a class guy and was great to talk to. Mr. McConnell is always around and came out on the course in a golf cart as he is unable to play anymore.  My overall impression of Weiskopf is that he is an excellent and thoughtful designer (his favorites are Mackenzie and Tillinghast).  

Sean_A

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Re:Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2005, 04:28:17 AM »
Steve mentioned Loch Lomond.  For those of you who have played it, where does it stand compared to the greats of The States?  Over here, everybody I know that has played it says it is one of the best courses on the planet.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Philip Gawith

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Re:Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2005, 07:27:22 AM »
Douglas - I have played Loch Lomond a few times. It is a fabulous course. Alas, it is some ten years since I played so I can't remember the whole routing. My architectural consciousness was also in its pre-infancy at the time,  so I am not sure I can add too much in that field.

The majesty of the course derives, in the first instance, from the setting - a loch, wonderful old trees, and some spectacular mountains. It would have been difficult to build a bad course starting with such fine ingredients.

As you know, the course hosts the Scottish Open annually, to much acclaim, so it passes muster at top level, but also manages to be an excellent, rather than overwhelming, challenge for the amateur. I don't recall being called on to make heroic carries etc. Probably the most memorable hole is the long par 6th which winds along the Loch. On the back nine a few holes are dramatically framed against the backdrop mountains. The 18th is a very picturesque finish along the Loch.

The course is very low and hence has tended to get very wet. Accordingly, it is not a course that favours the ground game (hence occasional grumbles about it being a poor preparation for The Open) so you don't really have a sense that it draws on the traditional game.

I have also played Zimbali - a course he designed on the north coast of Kwazulu Natal in South Africa, near Durban. The first nine is relatively open, played amid the surrounding environment of sugar cane fields. The second nine brings you more face to face with some dense bush that is characteristic of the region. There are a couple of holes there that make pretty severe demands of the amateur golfer. For what it is worth, it is the 19th ranked course in South Africa.

Jim Sweeney

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Re:Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2005, 10:15:31 AM »
I've played a number of Weiskopf courses and agree with most of what has been written here. However, I haven't played any of his courses since the split with Moorish.

I liked Double Eagle a lot. It's been awhile, but the routing is excellent and as has been mentioned, the conditioning impeccable. It is very walkable, yet has enough elevation changes to make one carefully choose one's club. There are several natural features, a creek and several ledges, which are cleverly used.

One positive indicator of Mr. Weiskopf's attitude toward GCA: I have been told that as a member of Desert Forest, he was asked to make recommendations for the course and was very reserved, only adding yardage on a few holes.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Scratch_Nathan

Re:Tom Weiskopf Architecture/Double Eagle Club
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2005, 04:11:49 PM »
I also watched SWWOG the other night and was struck by how much I liked Double Eagle.  Unique in its look and setting (though reminded me a little of the farmland where the Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys course is set).  Seemed like the course offered a nice helping of interesting decisions and shotmaking options.  Thought the look/shape/location of chipping areas was very well thought out.  Also seemed like all the strategic elements were in nice proportion with regard to fairway/bunker/green sizes in relation to the demands of the shot or hole.  More than anything, it looked like a lot of FUN!  Something that is sorely missing from much of the architecture that you see.

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