Crumbs for the Unwashed

[BCrosby]

A couple highlights from the talks would be most appreciated by those of us chained to a desk yesterday.

Bob

[mike_malone]

 Bill Coore's statement that he prefers to "choose" how to hit the shot rather than have it " dictated" to him was a sublime statement of what I look for in GCA.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Not sure how much of this might be repetitive, but what was quite apparent from hearing Bill was how truly collaborative their process is.  C & C get their names on the scorecard, but their courses would clearly not be as special as they are without Bradley, Axland, Duncan, et al. Also, Bill mentioned that they don't work from a set of plans, that the course evolves in the field.  The implication is that they cannot take jobs that would require detailed plans from either the permitting authorities or the proprietors. Makes their work all the more special.

[Willie_Dow]

Bob:
Mike's comment applies to the short knocker as well.  For one entering his late 70's those back tees on the front nine played as comfortably as the regular tees on the back.
I always had an option, and there was always room to use it, wisely or not.
This makes the game fun, even those shots off an uneven lie or stance - for which there were many.
Willie

[JESII]

I was most pleased with Bill Coore verbalization of his general shaping philosophy on the fairway. I don't have a full grasp on all that goes into it, but I assume you have to sort out the soil to clear roots and as many rocks as possible and then basically lay the seed. There is no massive smoothing of the fairway, they just sort of let it take whatever contours it might. they do this because the challenge that results to the player is very subtle and understated, but very real.

Example: #18 - Wind helping from left to right, about 400 yards. Playing with Mike Cirba, Eric Pevoto and Steve Sayers, we all hit good drives, and were spread across the hole at about 115 to 90 yards out from the center of the fairway to a yard in the right rough. Seemingly four good chances to make a birdie, but (at least in my opinion) due to four slightly awkward lies to a pin just slightly perched up we all hit poor wedges and ended the hole with two of us making six footers for par, one bogey and one double bogey.

I think this typifies the subtle challenge at Hidden Creek which in large part makes the course as enjoyable as it is.

[JESII]

You know, that's a good question. I don't really have an opinion on the best green on the course, having only played it once, but I sure gained alot of respect for that hole/green after thinning my sand wedge onto the back apron. It's one of those greens that, when you hit a drive down to 115, just sort of looks at you like "what, you think you're going to make a birdie here, think again".

To play that course well it seems you will have to hit better and better shots the closer you get to the hole. That is one sign of a job very well done in my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

This would have been one of those events that wouldn't have suffered had there been a rain delay or washout.

I could have listened to those fellows for days.

Each perspective was unique, yet they blended together marvelously.

Roger Hansen's overview of development and administration of public and private golf courses, and their unique problems based on site were highly informative.

Bill Coore's description of routing, hole design and construction were fascinating.

Jeff Rigg's description of preparation and maintainance of the golf course on a day to day and seasonal basis, along with his unique challenges were interesting to hear.

The combination of all three, followed by the opportunity to play the golf course previously discussed, provided for a great experience.

It's difficult to compress into words, 12 hours of a diverse experience.

Redanman,

BEST ?   Best in what way ?  

If it's internal contouring I'd say NO by a long shot.

Best in terms of approaching angle of attact ?  I'd say No

Best in terms of a ball hit just short or on the very front, perhaps.

I don't think there is a BEST green.
They all have their own unique characteristics so comparison becomes difficult.

By BEST, do you mean that all of the others are inferior ?

[A_Clay_Man]

Patrick, Congrats on what was obviously the high water mark for GCA get togethers.

Just hearing the quote Mike Malone provided was inspiring enough.

The diversity of experience really echos the Big World Theory.

[wsmorrison]

"Bill Coore's statement that he prefers to "choose" how to hit the shot rather than have it " dictated" to him was a sublime statement of what I look for in GCA."

Mike,

The expression of that statement is found all over Hidden Creek yet it seems apparent that you were critical of that very allowance for choice in Doug's thread.  Which is it?

[George Pazin]

My favorite Coore-ism was his use of the expression "this looks like golf". I suspect his idea of golf is different from many, but I personally love it.

I also think that Roger Hansen does not give himself enough credit. He spoke several times of the profit motive and his belief in it, yet I think he is more driven by a passion for the game than he lets on.

[JESII]

George,

He did suggest that his children and/or grandchildren might be the ones to benefit financially a little better.

I think the most admirable aspect of Mr. Hansen's whole contribution was that he let the architects do what they do. It must have been difficult to watch the creation of something you feel so strongly about without being overbearing, and that accomplishment came through very clearly from both Bill and Roger's talk's.

[mike_malone]

Wayne,

     Too much width can lead to "choice" not mattering--just hit it.   This course tests those "width" limits IMHO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Malone,

The "width" that you see is an illusion in terms of prefered lines of play.

[TEPaul]

BobC (Bobsy);

I thought the highlight of Bill Coore's talk yesterday (at least for me) was his description and explanation of the way their company routes a project and then lets the landforms on that routing start to inform them---and he did stress their modus is to not just allow but to actually ENCOURAGE any or all the "Boys" (theyve always referred to them as that--although some of them aren't boys anymore, they've all be together so long now) to input anything they want to in the form of ideas for how any hole could or should be. Bill did say as he spoke yesterday that Coore and Crenshaw may be the name that goes on the course but what they always do and the way they do it really is a huge team effort and contribution in how any course turns out.

Since we were at Hidden Creek that subject was pretty much confined to what happened there that way but some of the examples that Bill gave yesterday were both very indicative, explanatory and in a few cases pretty funny.

Having said that it's my sense from watching some of their projects of recent years from the very beginning that it's Bill who basically does the routings of their courses. He generally spends weeks to perhaps even a month or two doing that. He can certainly use a topo map and sometimes has one with him and sometimes not but his style is to just walk and walk and walk---either he or his clients may call it letting him roam.

Anyone can imagine what that's about---he's pretty much letting the entire site sort of inform him of what he referred to yesterday as 'where the best golf is'.    

In the case of Hidden Creek which is a big site of maybe 500 or more acres, a pretty good portion of it is wetlands so basically that defined where golf could not go on that site. And praise should be given to Roger Hansen for just letting Bill "roam' the remainder to find what he thought was the best for golf. Bill (or maybe it was Roger) told a pretty funny story about his roaming on Hidden Creek looking for "the best land for golf". I guess he didn't have a topo at one point when he was "roaming"  because he ended up across an old dirt road (there were a number of old dirt roads on the property before Roger Hansen bought the land) and Bill called Roger and told him he thought he was onto 'some real good ground for golf"! When Roger got Bill to describe where he was he told Bill; "You're on the New Jersey State police practice shooting range so get the hell out of there before somebody shoots you by mistake."

Then Bill told a story of how the "Tribute to the early English Heatland courses" came to happen at Hidden Creek. Bill said the raw site sort of felt something like Pinehurst to him but one day one of the "Boys" Danish/Scottish James Duncan said it actually looked more like the English Heathlands.

They all started considering that with Roger and decided it probably did and then they decided that James Duncan knew more about the Heathlands and its courses than they did and so James became the project manager (another great example of how anyone in the C&C company can and does have input if it's interesting).

Bill told another good story of how they keep by-passing what is now hole #7 because it looked so bland to them they just kept putting it off until Dan Proctor said he'd go out there and sort of mess around and try some stuff. He pushed some dirt into a few mounds or whatever and when they all got out there they concluded that it was starting to look like a cool golf hole with that little bit of "messing around" and apparently Proctor's messing around mounds formed the basis of the green, it's shape and orientation etc. I don't know whether it was that hole or another one but there was a big pile of trash or rubble somewhere out there and they all started looking at it and decided its placement and shape looked like a pretty cool feature for golf.

Roger Hansen, in his talk, mentioned that C&C don't really use plans if they can help it and even if that may pose some problems for a client in their case he just went with it and in restrospect realized that's half their genius.

I think Bill Coore explained really well how even if it may be highly unusual in this day and age they're the type of architects who find golf on land by letting the land tell them this and that slowly and then just start evolving it slowly until you get what it is today.

Bill Coore worked with me on a project that did not happen but I know what his "roaming" is all about. We had an owner who tried to tell us subtley not to go on a certain portion of ground (although he owned it). Well, I didn't feel like being pigeon-holed or restricted like that so I told Bill to go anywhere he felt like. Next morning when I got over there I couldn't find him so I called him on his Texas cell phone and sure enough he roamed way over somewhere where we weren't exactly supposed to be and he was just sitting out there looking at it. He'd found one of the best natural landforms for a golf hole I've ever seen in my life. All you would've needed to do is just plant fairway and green surface grass on it---all the rest was just there.

I expected Bill Coore in his quiet way to really impress that meeting with the way he looks at golf course architecture and I believe he did just that yesterday probably even more than even I expected him to.

He really is a incredible talent in building golf courses a certain way.  

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Thanks. Terrific stuff. I had most wanted to hear Bill Coore talk because I had heard so much about him. Sounds like his talk was better than I imagined.

You or someone told a story a couple of years ago about the head pro at NGLA being told by a member that they had seen a scruffy guy sitting on one of the hills on the course at sunset. They were concerned he was a prowler, so the pro goes out to run him off. It was Coore, contemplating some feature at NGLA. Turns out he had been there for several hours. Just absorbing things.

There is something very Eastern (in the sense of non-rational, non-analytic) in his m.o.

Reminds me of the distinction that Doak makes between those architects that build a hole from the inside out and those that build from the outside in. Coore gives new meaning to the concept of designing from the inside out.

Thanks for the summary. I am very sorry I missed the event.

Bob  

[John Foley]

Getting the chance to hear Bill talk about his experiences, his thoughts on the course, how the process went along was worth the price of admissions.

It was great to hear his comments about how good his crew is and how much the end prodcut that is in the ground is so much theirs was a wonderfull comment.

I especially liked his comment how C&C will never be called "prolific"!

I specifically liked Jeff Riggs giving us the "in the dirt details" of how he made choices for grasses in the build/grow-in & now maintains the course.

We should all be as lucky to have a guy like that at our home courses.

[RJ_Daley]

Bob Crosby, oh boy, these may be just a few left over crumbs for us not so lucky to attend a gathering like this, but I can still make a meal on all the comments!

Pat, congrats on putting together a big hit.  Were you and TEP able to come to some sort of agreement on anything?

[Mike_Trenham]

Jeff spoke about how they purposefully seeded the greens and the rest of the course with multiple strains of grasses to give the surfaces a modeled / aged look.

He also mentioned that they seeded the majority of the course and used very little sod even on the bunker surrounds.

They also spoke about the green construction being a California type.  This allowed the greater freedom in playing with the final product.  While Jeff admited not having USGA spec greens initially concerned him he is very satisfied with the green construction and ability to drain.  

[George Pazin]

One of the surprises for me was when Bill Coore stated that the Talking Stick courses are 100% manufactured. He said the initial site was 400 acres with a 1% grade. The only feature was a drainage ditch that was straight as a laser. He even joked that you could set a cup down on the ground on one side of the site and see it from the other side. I was previously under the impression that they found what was there, not created. It was interesting to hear Bill say that the project came up at an interesting time, following Sand Hills, which was totally natural, and they were looking for the challenge of creating something purely as a mental exercise.

[TEPaul]

"Were you and TEP able to come to some sort of agreement on anything?

RJ:

Nah, Pat and I are very consistent and that carried on through that Hidden Creek meeting. We pretty much disagree about 98% of the time. I've taught Pat just about everything he knows about architecture (which is actually quite a lot although for some reason he still gets it wrong about 98% of the time) but if I recall correctly as Pat called that meeting to order to begin the talks from Roger Hansen, Bill Coore and Jeff Riggs he started off by saying; "I'm Pat Mucci, and I'm Tom Paul's legal guardian.".

(At that point a really loud fart was heard from the back of the room where I was sitting).

[TEPaul]

Here are some comical precusors to the Hidden Creek meeting. One of the things I was really looking forward to is the fact that Pat Mucci and Bill Coore had never met each other.

It occured to me that Pat had never even spoken to Bill Coore before when Bill called up and asked what he was supposed to do at Hidden Creek;

BC: "What am I supposed to do there?"
TP: "You're supposed to speak".
BC: "I can't do that."
TP: "Why not?"
BC: "Because I have this agreement with myself that I can only speak twice a year."
TP: What's that all about---something like you can only build two courses a year?"
BC: Huh? No, I just have that agreement with myself and I've already spoken twice in '05.
TP: "Well, you know how you've said the timing of your projects tend to move forward and backward?"
BC: "Yeah, so what?"
TP: "So, you're speaking at Hidden Creek and just act like it's an "06 speech and you'll only have to speak one time in '06.

And then before driving over to Hidden Creek--Bill Coore to Roger Hansen:

BC: "What am I supposed to say?"
RH: "Do you know who these guys are?"
BC: "Aren't they mostly from GOLFCLUBATLAS?"

(Bill Coore knows about GOLFCLUBATLAS.com but he's never actually seen it because he doesn't know how to turn on a computer and he says he's definitely never going to learn)

RH: "If you don't want to speak, just introduce youself and ask if anyone has a question and with this crowd you can stand up there and talk all day if you want because they'll have so many questions."
TP: "Forget about it--at this meeting you'll be preaching to the choir anyway."

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ,

When I was introducing Bill Coore, I thanked him for flying for five hours from Arizona and driving another hour from the Philadelphia Airport to Roger Hansen's house with Tom Paul.

I then told the audience that Bill had told me that after his long trip, he definitely feels that flying is safer then driving.

I then asked him if Tom Paul had picked him up in his station wagon or his armored personel carrier.

Bill said he wasn't sure.

I then asked Bill if he found it unsettling, when he got in the passenger seat, to see the two crash dummies in the back seat and cameras mounted on both front fenders.

When Bill spoke, you could hear a pin drop.

He was scheduled to speak for 45 minutes, but, I extended it to an hour and a half because he was so informative and fascinating to listen to.

When I introduced Jeff Riggs, the superintendent, I indicated that after C&C et. al. had designed the course that a curator, who understood the marriage of architecture with maintainance had to take care of it.  I then said, "now that's a novel concept, I think I'll call it 'The Maintainance Meld'".
Everybody laughed, but, the person who the remark was intended for was out of the room on one of his 237 cigarette breaks.

Many on this site don't understand the impediments that an owner faces, financially, architecturally, and especially from the regulatory agencies.  Roger Hansen was both candid and highly informative in describing the process from conception through construction to completion.

Subsequent to the symposium I learned that the State of New Jersey had passed a new law.  In the past, if certain species existed on a property, they had to be protected, and in some cases it was an impediment to proceeding.
The new law states that if the site is a POTENTIAL habitat, not a current habitat, that you're under the gun, with the regulatory authorities.   Think about that in terms of trying to develop a golf course in the future, and think about it if you already have an operating golf course.

[RJ_Daley]

So Pat, what you are saying is if TEP stated he was 'thinking' of moving to New Jersey, under the new law they'd have to undertake a plan to protect him, as he is a rather odd and rare bird!  Yet, maybe the protection could come in the form of two torpedoes standing on either side of him doing a body guard thing, rather than messing around with environmental considerations.

[BCrosby]

George notes:

"It was interesting to hear Bill say that [Talking Stick] came up at an interesting time, following Sand Hills, which was totally natural, and they were looking for the challenge of creating something purely as a mental exercise."

What an extraordinary (and refreshing) thing to say.  

I have never heard - and do not expect to hear again -"mental exercise" as a reason to take on a new design project.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"I have never heard - and do not expect to hear again -"mental exercise" as a reason to take on a new design project."

Bobsy:

That's a good point. I asked him about that "mental excercise' thing later and he said they like to stretch themselves with different types of sites and stuff as well as the occasional tribute to the style of a particular time or architect.

TP: Have you ever heard of the "arts and crafts" movement in golf architecture, Bill?
BC: No, what's that, some neo-hippies in the golf architecture business?
TP: No, some say it was the influence that created heathland architecture and the primary influence on the "Golden Age" to such an extent the "Golden Age" should perhaps be renamed "Arts and Crafts architecture". Some say the "Arts and Crafts" movement was what took early English golf architecture out of the so-called "Dark Ages" or "Victorian"/"Industrial" golf architecture that was a result of the Industrial Revolution and the age of Victoriana and later early American golf architecture out of its "geometric" era. The "arts and Crafts" movement was a reaction to that early rudimentary time in early English golf architecture and early American "geometric" architecture.
BC: Hmmm. It still sounds to me like "arts and crafts" architecture is the movement of a bunch of unreconstructed hippies in the golf architecture business. Maybe I should tell Jeff Bradley about this.
TP: It was a movement that the English writer Horace Hutchinson used through the magazine Country Life to inspire and influence the healthland courses of Sunningdale and Huntercombe.
BC: Horace who? I thought Scotsman Willie Park Jr built Sunningdale and Huntercombe.
TP: He did but some say Horace Hutchinson showed him how to do it.
BC: (silence)
TP: So what type or style do you think you guys may pay tribute to on one of your next projects?
BC: I don't know yet but I do like the old stuff and that architecture you just called "Dark Age"/Victorian/Industrial" or "geometric" sounds interesting. Maybe we'll pay tribute to that in one of our next projects. What do you know about it?

(Walking down the 13th fairway I asked both Bill Coore and Ian Dalzell if they knew the exact defintion of a "cop" bunker. Both of them looked at me at the same time with that odd look most people look at me with and both said; "A what kind of bunker?").