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Dave_Miller

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Irrigation Systems
« on: March 17, 2005, 11:52:15 AM »
To the Treehouse:

Can anyone share their experience with installing a new irrigation system? We are considering replacing a system that is more than 25 years old.

What are the pitfalls to watch out for?  Who should design the system any recommendations?  What experiences were involved with the contractor, installer, designer, etc.  

What contractors has anyone worked with and what type of experience was involved with the contractor?

Any information or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

RJ_Daley

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2005, 12:00:41 PM »
Dave, I'd start by going to the GCSAA website and checking which books they currently have on the subject.  It is a complicated subject and it seems to me that selecting a contractor without at least a fundamental understanding is a bit more trust in their ability to present a sales pitch rather than putting forth the essentials of what is needed at your facility.  I think, but hesitate to declare for sure, that one can over-buy bells and whistles.  My text book on the subject is a dozen years old, and I am sure it is not up to date in what is available in hardware and versatility.

Of course that is why you have a well educated superintendent to wade through this stuff for you and help you understand the details. ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dave_Miller

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2005, 12:05:53 PM »
Dave, I'd start by going to the GCSAA website and checking which books they currently have on the subject.  It is a complicated subject and it seems to me that selecting a contractor without at least a fundamental understanding is a bit more trust in their ability to present a sales pitch rather than putting forth the essentials of what is needed at your facility.  I think, but hesitate to declare for sure, that one can over-buy bells and whistles.  My text book on the subject is a dozen years old, and I am sure it is not up to date in what is available in hardware and versatility.

Of course that is why you have a well educated superintendent to wade through this stuff for you and help you understand the details. ;D

RJ:
Thanks.  We have a pretty good understanding of what we think we need.  We have done a lot of homework on the subject.
At this point I am trying to find out what experiences others have had who have already gone through the process.
What to look out for, what contractors are good, what designers are considered the best.
In short if someone has replaced a sytem what was their experiences and are their dangers to be on the lookout for.

Best
Dave
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 12:06:13 PM by Dave_Miller »

Peter Galea

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2005, 12:08:35 PM »
Get the irrigation technician (the guy who is going to run and repair the system) involved as early as possible. Have him not only watch everything that goes in the ground, but have him work with the installation crew. Get the computer online early...very early. DO NOT pay the retention until you have an accurate set of as-builts in your hand.
"chief sherpa"

Dave_Miller

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2005, 12:09:50 PM »
Get the irrigation technician (the guy who is going to run and repair the system) involved as early as possible. Have him not only watch everything that goes in the ground, but have him work with the installation crew. Get the computer online early...very early. DO NOT pay the retention until you have an accurate set of as-builts in your hand.

Pete:
Thanks.  Any recommendation on a designer or contractor?
Best
Dave

Steve Curry

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2005, 12:27:00 PM »
Dave,

The best consultant out there is Jim Barrett.
"James Barrett Associates, Inc., Essex Fells, NJ USA  
jba.irr@comcast.net  
JBA, Inc. is an irrigation consulting company, which specializes exclusively in golf course irrigation. The company was founded in 1984." *from turfnet*

When I was an assistant at Hominy Hill the county had hired him for the rather extensive system that was installed there.  We did the installation through my first summer and it was a hot one.

From what I learned through that process and with some engineering background we did the installation here at BHCC with plans of my specifications drawn by our supplier.

Biggest issue in our area is establishing the rock clause and defining its value.
 

Steve  

JSlonis

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2005, 12:33:14 PM »
Get the irrigation technician (the guy who is going to run and repair the system) involved as early as possible. Have him not only watch everything that goes in the ground, but have him work with the installation crew. Get the computer online early...very early. DO NOT pay the retention until you have an accurate set of as-builts in your hand.

Pete:
Thanks.  Any recommendation on a designer or contractor?
Best
Dave

Dave,

Here is a link to the irrigation company that is doing our new system at Tavistock. We are replacing a very old system as well, the job is set to start this June.  We built the new irrigation system into our total master plan for restoration. In order to properly maintain all the architectural and agronomic changes, it was neccesary to redo our system completely so that it would be in place before Forse's company began the actual restoration work.  

Tanto has a great reputation and if you look at all the clubs they have worked with, it is quite impressive.  Our Supt. is planning to hire a full time irrigation technician who will be involved from the start of construction, this person will know all the in's and out's of the system and will be on staff to run it after completion.

Hope this helps...

http://www.tantoirrigation.com/
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 12:41:13 PM by JSlonis »

Dave_Miller

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2005, 01:01:52 PM »
Get the irrigation technician (the guy who is going to run and repair the system) involved as early as possible. Have him not only watch everything that goes in the ground, but have him work with the installation crew. Get the computer online early...very early. DO NOT pay the retention until you have an accurate set of as-builts in your hand.

Pete:
Thanks.  Any recommendation on a designer or contractor?
Best
Dave

Dave,

Here is a link to the irrigation company that is doing our new system at Tavistock. We are replacing a very old system as well, the job is set to start this June.  We built the new irrigation system into our total master plan for restoration. In order to properly maintain all the architectural and agronomic changes, it was neccesary to redo our system completely so that it would be in place before Forse's company began the actual restoration work.  

Tanto has a great reputation and if you look at all the clubs they have worked with, it is quite impressive.  Our Supt. is planning to hire a full time irrigation technician who will be involved from the start of construction, this person will know all the in's and out's of the system and will be on staff to run it after completion.

Hope this helps...

http://www.tantoirrigation.com/

Jamie
Thanks
Dave

Mike_Young

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2005, 01:12:21 PM »
Larry Rodgers that post on this site is one of the best irrigation designers also.  I have not used him but have read his specs and know people that have.  Seems very thorough.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Doug Wright

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2005, 01:14:39 PM »
Dave,

We completed a new irrigation system at Denver CC a couple years back, replacing a 25 year old one. I sent you an IM with contact info.

Best,
Twitter: @Deneuchre

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2005, 01:25:01 PM »
What does a new irrigation system cost today?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Dave_Miller

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2005, 02:14:52 PM »
What does a new irrigation system cost today?

Cary:
CAn be anywhere from $1,000,000 to $2,000,000 depending on a lot of variables including but not limited to the bells and whistles that are added, Rock or ledge issues, 3 row or 5 row system, etc., etc.
How everything at Admirals.
Best
Dave

JSlonis

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2005, 02:24:32 PM »
Dave,

As an interesting note...on Tanto's website there is a "Body of Work" section that lists all the courses they have worked with.  **When I clicked on a few of the courses, I was forwarded to their specific COURSE PROFILE on GOLF CLUB ATLAS. :)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 02:24:59 PM by JSlonis »

Mike McGuire

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2005, 06:57:01 PM »
Dave -

I would encourage you to check the original location of the fairways and green surfaces. Over time holes get straighter and greens get smaller. Now is the time to reestablish these lines.

Installing the irrigation will lock you into the present scenario which may not be the original or intended version.  


James Bennett

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2005, 07:42:04 PM »
Dave

to clarify and emphasise Mike McGuire's point, review the fairway and rough lines, including irrigation areas pre automatic irrigation, ie over 25 years ago.  This assumes that areas were manually irrigated (or 'naturally irrigation', ie rainfall) reasonably well not to influence fairway/rough lines.  

This is particularly important if you had/wish to have fairways with varying width.  Single and double row systems have a tendancy over time to straighten these fairways.

One of the good responses I saw here earlier in the year was about irrigation points in the rough.  Just because they are there doesn't mean that they have to be used excessively.  You can turn them off, or wind them back.  If you regularly have droughts, you need to understand what you will do in any key transition areas to keep them going.

Good luck.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2005, 09:48:32 AM »
Don't be fooled by anyone who says the best way for firm and fast is less irrigation heads. In the wrong hands, maybe, but many courses get too wet because heads in the fairway and primary rough are used to try and reach dry spots on the outer edge of the course. This results in getting some water to the bad spots but too much to the middle of the course.

If you want to keep the course firm and fast you will have to do a lot of spot watering. So I suggest, that if in the budget you:
1. Single wire all heads so each head can be independently controlled. Some courses do this and then skimp on controllers so the heads end up getting double or triple wired at the controller. I would stress single head control to your consultant.
2. Put in quick couplers at all greens, tees and any south facing bunker faces.
3. Consider the use of small mist heads on any really steep bunker surrounds.
4. Put in a weather station.
5. Use the mapping features available with all new central control systems. Have everything mapped with GPS.
6. If installing a Toro system, use OSMAC. If your using Rainbird, get the Freedom system.
7. If a new pump station is part of your plans, make sure you get a brand that interfaces with your control software.

Good luck with your project.

Larry_Rodgers

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2005, 10:25:31 PM »
Mike,
Thank-you for the kind words.
 Irrigation installation costs that are approaching $2+ million are not out of the ordinary and I am involved with many "normal systems" in the $1.5 mil range. These costs make it very difficult for the accounting types to justify the Return On Investment for this very important maintenance tool.
 The first item you will need is to get, is your mapping and cost records in hand. All costs, people, parts, electricity, water costs, outside labor, pump repairs and manpower are only the beginning. Mapping should include every piece of paper that you have relating to the irrigation system, original plans, guess-builts, drainage, reconstruction plans and anything else that could be hit by a trencher. The more data you have the better the project will be.
 After you have all of your records assembled, have a firm survey/GPS your golf course. It is very important to record items that can be identified from aerial imagery. Write down every item you would like recorded such as sprinklers, controllers, valves, golf features and other items that can be identified and located. GPS or any other type of survey equipment can not locate pipe or wires.
 Once you have the GPS data find an electronic high resolution aerial with 1 meter or less pixel resolution. Use the GPS/survey data to "stretch and fit" the image to the known gps point features. This will allow you to start the real fun of recreating what is under the ground and may be encountered during the construction process. Be prepared to add all of your mapping notes to this image and it will take many tries to get it correct.
 The GPS orthorectified image should be at a scale of 1"=100' or 1"=50' and should be reproduceable easily. We recomend our clients have a 11x17 color printer for recording notes for each golf hole that are sent to the person assembling the geodata.
 These notes and "best guess-builts" will pay dividends at every stage of the process and I can not overstress their importance. Very few courses are willing to give the maintance department a $2,000,000 maintenance tool to make their life easier, so your preparation can not be taken lightly.
 When you have the base existing information together then you should be thinking of your "equipment wish list", be sure to think of what results you are looking for this tool to produce and less on what features/whistles/bells you are looking for. Most owners are looking for the results the irrigation will produce and it is important to get into this mindset.
 It is after this point you should be able to discuss openly with your irrigation designer of the courses' expectations. The driving factors of most systems will include: 1) how much will it cost? 2) how long will the course be under construction? and 3) how much of the course will be closed? Be prepared to discuss the Better/Faster/Cheaper theory. In reality you will only be able to choose 2.
 A typical renovation of an existing irrigation system will take from 2 to 5 years to complete. This includes the time required to get "Wall Street" on board and buy into the idea, to when that final piece of sod is reinstalled. Be prepared for many town hall education meetings, writing columns in the newsletter, tours of other courses around you with decision makers, additional education of the board personell changes and find that one member who is repected by the other members to be your cheerleader.
 The selection of equipment, design theories and contractor selection are items that will influence the success value of the project.
 I would urge caution as you start this process as one "unwritten secret" of an irrigation renovation is the rate of failure as measured in loss of employment within 2 years after the project is complete. The figure is close to 1 in 3 of Superintendents who move within 2 years of completing
the project. There are many reasons ranging from very successful painless renovation to complete disasters caused by weather, bad contractors, not enough budget, lack of understanding or just plain bored because the action of construction is over. The 2 out of 3 who stay on will benefit from the hard work and pride that comes with doing the best possible work under all of the restrictions.
 If you are interested in further discussions please send me a note.

TEPaul

Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2005, 04:52:30 AM »
Dave:

It looks like you've been given some good leads for consultanats and irrigation companys.

However, if I were you I'd try to get some feedback from a club whose just gone through a total re-irrigation project to hear things from the perspective of a golf club (who doesn't do this often). The only one I know of whose just completed a total irrigation system project recently is Lehigh C.C. I watched some of it being installed in the last two years and it looked comprehensive and probably expensive. If I were you I'd email Mark Fine and ask him about it from the perspective of the club  (he's from Lehigh C.C.). He'll also put you in touch with Lehigh's super who is excellent and great to talk to. If you want their contact info I'd be glad to get it for you.

Dave_Miller

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Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2005, 02:56:46 PM »
Dave:

It looks like you've been given some good leads for consultanats and irrigation companys.

However, if I were you I'd try to get some feedback from a club whose just gone through a total re-irrigation project to hear things from the perspective of a golf club (who doesn't do this often). The only one I know of whose just completed a total irrigation system project recently is Lehigh C.C. I watched some of it being installed in the last two years and it looked comprehensive and probably expensive. If I were you I'd email Mark Fine and ask him about it from the perspective of the club  (he's from Lehigh C.C.). He'll also put you in touch with Lehigh's super who is excellent and great to talk to. If you want their contact info I'd be glad to get it for you.

Tommy and the Treehouse:
Thanks for the info and the advice.  We will go slowly and carefully.  Our plan is to design the system this year  and if we receive the approval of the Membership to go ahead with an installation to begin sometime after the Mass Open in 2006.

Thanks to everyone for the help.  If anything else comes up please let me know.

Best to all,
Dave

TEPaul

Re:Irrigation Systems
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2005, 03:07:39 PM »
Dave:

Here's what you need to do. Design the system, make it as sophisticated as you want but at the last minute see to it that he pipe diameters are about 1/4 the size they're supposed to be and that way even if those greener than green yahoos at your club want to over-irrigate there'll be no way they can!  ;)

And when they try to grill you later on what happened just give them the old standard---"Whooops, sorry about that, can I have another $1.5 mi to rip it all out of the ground and get it right?"

But If they don't actually give you the money to do it again--of course I'll want my usual 17% whiskey money suggestion fee!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 03:10:36 PM by TEPaul »

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