[Jim Johnson]

The Players Championship is around the corner, which leads to my question...

What are your thoughts on the 17th hole, with the island green?

Love it? (Why?)
Hate it? (Why?)
Have you ever played it? If so, any interesting stories to tell us?

JJ

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jim,

I love the hole.

First of all, it provides great drama during The Players Championship. I think the putting surface is a really clever design too.

I've been watching that tournament since I was a kid. I thought I understood the exciting atmosphere at that 17th hole during The Players Championship until I had an opportunity to work as a scorer for NBC a few years ago.

I followed Chris DiMarco and Bob May around, and when we arrived at the 17th tee, the atmosphere blew my mind. It was amazing... thousands of people surrounding the hole, dead slient until the tee shot is struck. Then, the cheering is similar to that at an NFL game!

It's a really neat hole that puts a lot of pressure on the world's best golfers to play a perfect shot at "crunch time". And the atmosphere is unlike any other spot in golf during the tournament.  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I like it, in the context that it exists at Sawgrass. I am not a fan of duplicating it everywhere, but at Sawgrass it fits in. It is one-dimensional, which is not my favourite attribute for a golf hole, but it makes a clear distinction between a good shot and a bad one. The distance is short enough that it is not as penal as it appears, unless the wind is up or the green is really hard. I am actually surprised that as many pros find the water.

Also, I love the suspense the hole brings to the entire round. I ask Adam Clayman when were playing there in January, if the hole was in his head, if it had not been at that point, it certainly was after I made my comment. I love walking up 16 and seeing it out of the corner of your eye and trying not to look. Any hole that has that ability for the better player is great in my book. It is far more penal for the high-handicapper, but they are playing it from 90 yards and they can thin a wedge and still find the green. The joy expressed when people hit the green is another winning attribute of the hole.

Again, I love it in the context of Sawgrass, but I hate it at PGA West and most of the subsequent island greens that I have seen.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I have to agree with Ben. I also dislike island greens in general. But Sawgrass' works brilliantly.

I find the entire setting at the 16th and 17th holes very attractive... the view of the island green from the 16th hole presents a beautiful vista, and also builds up anticipation of the tee shot to come, which is an excellent psycological element of the design.

[Andy Doyle]

I love the TV shots they have during the Player's of people walking up 16 and seemingly against their best efforts, glancing over at #17.  It's one of the reasons I love that hole - it must loom in their minds the entire round, especially on the weekend.

AD

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff and Ben,
Seem you both like the island green concept at Sawgrass.  Why is it then not reasonable that other courses around the country would not want to give their golfers a similar experience.  99% or more of all golfers will never have the opportunity to playt #17 at Sawgrass.
Just wondering.
Mark

[Kyle Harris]

Mark,

I belive that an island green par three or short four needs to have a logical place in the routing for it to work. At Sawgrass it follows a risk/reward par 5 and precedes a wonderfully difficult but manageable par 4 finish.

How many people use the island green without the mastery of Pete Dye when it comes to routing?

To me, that's probably why they don't work too often elsewhere.

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
So why would someone hate it as the #17 hole at PGA West?
Mark

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Jeff and Ben,
Seem you both like the island green concept at Sawgrass.  Why is it then not reasonable that other courses around the country would not want to give their golfers a similar experience.  99% or more of all golfers will never have the opportunity to playt #17 at Sawgrass.
Just wondering.
Mark

Mark,
I like Sawgrass' length and position between a short risk-reward five and a brutally tough closing par four. I also like unique pieces of art, which on its own does not make me wish to see it duplicated throughout the world, so those who do not want to travel to see the original can get a sense of it.

PGA West's is a poorer version, both because it lacks originality, it is more difficult, and the rock surrounds detract aesthetically.

Copying design principles is something I have no problem with and part of my great love for NGLA. However, playing the cape at NGLA and the 5 at Mid Ocean, are not the same thing. However, the island green at Sawgrass has been duplicated elsewhere, without success. The reason goes to my original post, in which I mentioned its one-dimensional character.

Dye was not a fan of the finish at PGA West, although your argument that the 99% of golfers... was its justification. I have played them both and I know exactly why Dye would not want to have done it twice.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mark,

At the time it was constructed, Dye's island green was extremely original. It's uniqueness and popularity these days make knock-offs seem goofy.

I think it's as simple as that.    

[Brian Phillips]

Jeff,

At the time it was constructed it was an accident!!

From his book:

'Such a hole was the farthest thing from my mind when we set the green site marker some 150 yards from the tee for the seventeenth hole.  The area around the green site contained the best sand for the course, and the more we dug it out to use on the fairways, the deeper and wider the cavity became.

Soon I was amazed to see that nearly three-quarters of the land around the green site was gone.  The idea for an island green flashed in my mind, and I called Alice over to discuss it with her.

Perhaps it was the memory of Strong's island green, but I knew we had happened onto something speical.  Alice's enthusiasm matched mine - and Deane Beaman's when we told him.'

- Pete Dye - Bury Me in a Pot Bunker

A magical book full of great stories and lots of humour.

Brian

[igrowgrass]

Has anyone ever heard the rumor that they buried railroad ties under the front portion of that green, in the mix to try and firm it up?

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm familiar with that story, Brian  

Strong's island green, down the road at Ponte Vedra Inn & CC, is on an island, but it's a larger island fit with a green surrounded by a few bunkers and palm trees. It doesn't present the same drama as Dye's island green at Sawgrass. Not even close.

[Doug Siebert]

Here's the 13th hole of my home course, Finkbine GC, built by Robert Bruce Harris in 1954.  The only double island green I've ever heard of.  It plays about 180 to the left green and 200 to the right from the tips, this shot was taken from the front of the teebox, about 30 yards closer.  There is another set of tees about 100 yards off to the left that's about 150 to the left green and 190 to the right (though I haven't seen those tees used with the right green for at least 15 years)  The greens aren't quite as intimidating looking as Dye's since there is a little collar of rough around them (but with the more recent addition of a concrete cart path behind, which I "benefit" from at least once each season)  But even including the rough and cartpath each island is easily smaller than Sawgrass' 17th.

Though there is certainly more wind on a typical day at Sawgrass versus here in Iowa, the teebox here is slightly elevated since those greens and the pond are in the lowest area of the course and surrounded by hills on three sides, open only to the west.  When there's a strong wind with a westerly component it can swirl around and do some interesting things.  Sometimes the flag on the 12th green behind you and the flag on the 13th don't really agree on the wind direction at all, making committing to one's club selection and shot a difficult task.  Its not for nothing the 12th-14th holes are known as Finkbine's "Amen Corner".

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