[Matthew MacKay]

Ben, I appreciate your response and agree that Weston is likely the strongest of those listed (especially the front 9) and look forward to any restoration that may ensue.

Summit is an incredible piece of land, worth playing just for that alone.  Mississaugua has been buggered a bit too much but possesses some of the best holes around...3,9,15 (from the very back tee).  Shame about wasting the great view from 17 at Burlington, what a bizarre hole and a sour note to end the round.  I thought maybe the course was connected to the nearby Botanical Gardens...it's like a jungle out there.

I didn't mean to imply that the courses listed should have made the list, but that an argument could be made...and we all love a good argument.

Jeff, I got your back on Grandview.  My only cottage country stop before it would be Bigwin.

[ian]

Summit - I think it is barely top 25, but I was alone. The routing is great even though the architecture isn't.
Mississaugua - doesn't do it for me
Thornhill - some truly great holes, easily top 50
Highland - enjoyable but not top 25
Burlington - With a rebuilt 17th and major tree removal (all coming soon) this would make my top 25 barely
Weston - #26 by votes.
Kawartha - I like this more than the others. It may have an opportunity in a few years.
Grandview - Not in my view
Osprey Hoot - Easily if the course ended at #15, the waterfall on 17 undoes all the great work before it.
Beacon Hall - Very close in votes but a couple of truly bad holes on the front
London Hunt - Dull
Taboo - I like it and find it fun to play, others didn't.
Rocky Crest - nice, but nothing stands out
Pulpit - Disneyland of architecture


Phillipe,

Beaconsfield was on my list, and I also like Laval (green) and Mount Bruno too. Kanawaki has wonderful moments but some of the land is too ordinary to provide for great holes.

I don't like Royal Montreal because of the massive repetition of green styles. Almost every green is a four foot plateau with the green set on a 45 going alternately right and left. Each hole has two bunkers in front and one in back to reinforce the angle. You come away from that course thinking you have seen the same green over and over. The course is very tough, but lacks any options or charm. Give me Elm Ridge North over the blue course any day of the week. Great history, dull architecture.

I will go see Montebello in the spring of this year. I need to return to Ottawa to finish up at Rideau View. I have photos from before John Watson's major remodel, so I am overdue in returning to the course.

[Matt Kardash]

ya, i wasn't implying that i thought cooke did good work.......i was making a joke at how he gets ALL the work in quebec

[Adam_F_Collins]

Pulpit - Disneyland of architecture

I'd agree that it's aesthetic is certainly over-the-top, but it does provide interesting options on several holes and I found it a lot of fun to play. I also found the whole place to be well-considered and a great attention paid to the design of the whole experience. While your reference to the amusement park certainly holds a truth, I think that the course's exaggerated nature is part of a thoughtful contrast to it's sister course.

However, I have little experience and have played few of the courses on your list. I'm still new to the subject and it's quite possible that with more experience and education, I might come to agree more fully with your assessment.

[frank_D]

Sirs Andrew, Cowan-Dewar, Mingay andThompson,

as a frequent visitor to MONTREAL  i would like to know - were any courses on the island deemed POTENTIAL candidates ?

[Matthew MacKay]

Ian, thanks for the comments.  

Adam, I agree that Devil's Pulpit is not as gimmicky on whole as others would believe.  There are a few circus holes with multiple fairways and hyper-shaping but that is not representative of the entire course.  I believe it does have to be taken into context with it's sister course as well.  I'd be curious to know the breakdown of member play at the two courses.

As far as seeing what's to see in Canada, I'm afraid you'll have to make an extended trip to Southern Ontario.  The likes of Devil's Pulpit are a dime a dozen here now and the majority of classics are here as well.

[JohnV]

Nice article.

What do you guys think of Marine Drive in Vancouver?  I've never seen it but a good friend of mine really enjoyed.

By the way for those with Firefox in the In My Opinion section, just hit / and then type Canada and hit return and you'll get to the article.  A quick view of the source looks like there is something wrong with the HTML that was generated as it has hundreds of font declarations which might be preventing it from being seen.

[Jeff_Mingay]

John,

Marine Drive is laid out over 100 acres. The course is relatively short, and the holes are tightly packed. But, Vernon Macan's early 1920s routing is quite smart. Even though there's really not much room, you still feel like you can play golf without much interference from adjacent holes.

I have a really neat aerial that says a lot about the brilliance of Macan's routing on this tiny property. The holes fit together like pieces of a puzzle. It's a really interesting visual from above.

There are a few neat holes, like the par 3 4th (?) that plays along the log strewn Fraser River, but really nothing that exciting. The property's basically flat. There are way too many trees. And some recent changes stand out poorly against original course features.

Marine Drive is defintely not top-25 in Canada.  

[Adam_F_Collins]

As far as seeing what's to see in Canada, I'm afraid you'll have to make an extended trip to Southern Ontario.  The likes of Devil's Pulpit are a dime a dozen here now and the majority of classics are here as well.

Actually Matt, most of my limited exposure came from an extended stay in Toronto in 2003. During the stay, I played:

Angus Glen North and South
St. Andrews Valley
Osprey Valley Hoot, Toot and Heathlands
Hunter's Pointe
Hockley Valley
Devil's Pulpit
Devil's Paintbrush
Legends of Niagara Battlefields
Royal Ontario
Glen Abbey
Woodington Lake
National Pines
Copper Creek
and St. George's

I didn't know anyone there and didn't know where to start at the time, so I feel like I did pretty well - especially to get on at St. George's. I played 17 courses on that trip, but if I had to do it over again, I'd reduce the list to these 7:

St. George's
Devil's Paintbrush
Devil's Pulpit
Osprey Heathlands
Angus Glen South
Glen Abbey
Copper Creek

...and then I'd have ten spots to fill
 

[Robert Thompson]

John: Ian saw Marine Drive this summer and said it was a shooting gallery, actually one of the tightest pieces of property he'd seen. And apparently they are adding more trees to make it even tighter. "Crazy," was Ian's quote.
As for the island in Montreal -- Ian works there and has seen more than I. I'm just a fan of Bruno, which is very good.

Adam: If you get back to Toronto, there's lots more to see (including Eagles Nest), but most of it (Toronto, Rosedale, Weston, Summit, Scarboro) is private. Glad you enjoyed St. George's -- but what is not to enjoy?

Robert

[Adam_F_Collins]

Robert,

I'll be back (my wife's family is from Toronto). Highest on my list for the area are Hamilton, Scarboro, The National, Toronto and Eagles Nest.

As my eyes slowly open to architecture, I'm getting really anxious to get out there and play more of the greats.

[JohnV]

Jeff/Robert, thanks for the information.  I'd always wondered.  The PNGA had their mid-amateur there twice in the 90s, but I was never able to play.

[ian]

Frank D,

Best of Montreal (in order-only my opinion)
Beaconsfield by Willie Park Jr.
Mount Bruno by Willie Park Jr.
Laval-sur-le-lac (Green) by Willie Park Jr.
Elm Ridge (North)  by Gordon
Ilesmere (White/Blue) by Willie Park Jr.
Kanawaki by Albert Murray
Royal Montreal (Blue), by Dick Wilson
Royal Montreal (Red), by Dick Wilson
Hillsdale


John,

Marine Drive is insanely tight. The increbile verticle line of trees seperating the holes like soldiors down each fairway remonds me of formal French gardens. The bunkering is not bad and some of the green surfaces are quite good. The course gives you massive claustrophobia, and the additional planting inside the tree lines on a few holes "for difficulty" is over the top. The 17th is worth seeing (with 25' deep Big Bertha) and there are a couple of nice holes.


Adam,

Places you can play:

Kawartha in Peterborough, excellent Thompson course
Taboo 2 hrs.
Deerhurst 3 hrs.
Grandview 3hrs.
Bigwin Island 2.5 hrs.
The Rock 2.5 hrs.

Private Courses you can write:

St. Thomas, outstanding Thompson (2hrs.)
Red Tail can be played with a stay there ($)
(10 minutes from St. Thomas)
Lookout Point, great Travis on fantastic site (1hr.)
The National will except limited play ($)
try Scarboro

Others can be approached in advance, Toronto is more friendly than most US cities for outside play.

[Matthew MacKay]

Couple of questions for those in the know.

Have Toronto's bunkers changed much since inception?  I assume at one time Hamilton's and Toronto's bunkers were similar seeing as Colt built them within a couple of years.

Why aren't more courses like The Paintbrush and Osprey Heathlands built?  It seems they offer really interesting golf on less than ideal terrain (particularly Osprey).

What is the architectural timeline of Rosedale?  Seems as though more than a few have their imprint on it.

[Chris]

Hi,

You are right about the font tags John, we've removed them and it displays OK in Firefox now.

Cheers
Chris
SiteSuite

Nice article.

What do you guys think of Marine Drive in Vancouver?  I've never seen it but a good friend of mine really enjoyed.

By the way for those with Firefox in the In My Opinion section, just hit / and then type Canada and hit return and you'll get to the article.  A quick view of the source looks like there is something wrong with the HTML that was generated as it has hundreds of font declarations which might be preventing it from being seen.

[ian]

Have Toronto's bunkers changed much since inception?
Yes and no, the locations are mostly the same, but the bunkers are definately "cleaned up" from the origional look and style. Toronto is mostly intact.
  I assume at one time Hamilton's and Toronto's bunkers were similar seeing as Colt built them within a couple of years.

Why aren't more courses like The Paintbrush and Osprey Heathlands built?  It seems they offer really interesting golf on less than ideal terrain (particularly Osprey).
Glencairn, Red Tail, Dakota Dunes, Wolf Creek, Blackhawk, etc. I think there are plenty of similar courses

What is the architectural timeline of Rosedale?  Seems as though more than a few have their imprint on it.
Course is laid out by Bendelow, renovated by Ross (13 greens), renovated by Robinson (primarily the first major change to 18, renovated by Cupp (current bunkering-6-12-2nd major rebuild of 18, renovated by Carrick Design, minor changes around greens mainly invoving shaving surrounds & rebuild of 18th once again.

[Philippe Binette]

A question to Ben Dewar.

Is there a renovation project in the books at Montebello. If so, who is on it...

As far as the first hole, it's the hole that makes the whole routing (an excellent one given the importance of topography)
work.

[Matthew MacKay]

Thanks, Ian.  Sounds as if Rosedale is a composite of Bendelow routing and Ross greens, although it seems as though Ross gets more credit for the course.

What has been the issue with 18 over the years?

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