[Bob_Huntley]

I said in a previous thread, when I walked off PD, I was stunned that someone has been able to create a world class links course outside of the homeland isles..Bnadon did not do that for me, neither did Kingsbarns which made me feel like I was in America playing an attempt to create the kind of course that Pd is...does that make sense.

Michael,

Quite frankly, I feel that your comments on Kingsbarns have not been terribly well thought out. Pacific Dunes is a wonderful creation, however, the land was there and good on Tom for squeezing the last bit of beauty and challenge from a spectacular site.

Having driven from St. Andrews down to Ely these past umpty ump years and looked across at the potato field that is now the Kingbarns Golf Course, I think it is a monumental achievement.

Do tell me, what American course do you imagine when playing Kingsbarns?

[TEPaul]

redanman:

Regarding your post #22---

You're on another track from what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a course or courses that're a significant turning point in architecture since 1960---not a significant turning point in golfers.

The world of golfers is not the point I'm making or referring to. Sunningdale was a significant turning point in architecture. How many golfers saw it? NGLA was a significant turning point in architecture and how many of the golfers of its day saw it? How many golfers have been to Shadow Creek or Sand Hills.

This is a about a course or courses that're a turning point in architecture not some point that's a turning point in golfers. The latter probably never existed!

When it comes to golfers, the "Big World" theory will very likely continue to endure!  

[Craig Sweet]

This IS about a turning point in golfers.

Unless "turning points" in golf course architecture begin to happen more in the public eye, and less behind gated conclaves, or at a level of exclusivity (is that even a word?) I think we are fighting a losing battle when confronted with the loss of our classic courses to development pressures and the battles that are often fought to build new courses.

Many golfers, and non-golfers as well, think "a golf course is a golf course, is a golf course".

It is much like the saving of Grand Central Station and Elis Island. The charge toward preservation might have begun with the elite, but it was the education and enlightenment, followed by the activism of the many that saved those buildings.

There are reasons why this matters! There are reasons why we care about these places.

Golf courses are no different. The average golfer NEEDS to be exposed to the modern "must play" golf course to appreciate its signifigance, and better understand why we praise the "classic" courses. There most certainly needs to be, and there can be, a "turning point for golfers". But I don't see that happening with Sand Hills be nearly inaccessible 9for several reasons) or Bandon requiring $400 for a round of golf.

[A_Clay_Man]

Craig, Well said, but there are other examples of courses that offer the modern golfer exposure to non-dictatorial golf and that don't cost a fortune. Lubbock, Gothenburg, Happy Canyon, are all reasonably priced. Perhaps not reasonably located, save for the L.A. megalopolis.

[mark chalfant]

Desert Forest, Royal Montreal, and Saucon Weyhill. Desert
Forest is an early example of a sensitive design in the arid southwest by Red Lawrence.

[Brian_Gracely]

Brian,

I think it was FatBaldyDummer that said it is an American thing to want to go all over and play everything new...Do you think everything new is a Must Play....don't make me bring Childs into this..

There are always going to be people that believe they must see the new stuff, whether it's golf courses or movies staring Matt Damon & Ben Affleck.  But I think you need to ask yourself, "Is there something unique that I should expect to see?".  

For example, Tom Doak had built courses before Pacific Dunes, but I'd consider Pacific Dunes a "Must Play" for a couple of reasons:  (a) Tom's first chance on a world-class canvas, and with the added pressure of following Bandon Dunes.  Seeing how people react to real pressure is a great measure of their character. (b) While people might bemoan the increased prices at Bandon Dunes, the place still has the intrigue of the risk Mr.Keiser took on not only these unknown architects (at least before Bandon Trails) and the overall concept of the type of golf being created around Bandon Dunes.  

But does this mean I feel like I'd need to go see each new Doak course....absolutely not.  The courses around Oz seem interesting because of the land, but that course in the desert where the marketing material makes the hollow claims of "some the best land I've ever seen" does absolutely nothing for me.  Same goes for C&C....if you open your mind a little, you start to see alot of the same tricks and techniques on many of their courses.  Some of them are great, and some are just basic strategy with hairy bunkers or big greens.  But I'd apply the same criteria as above, and hence their Warren Course @ ND was more interesting to me than Cuscowilla because the creativity they used on "bland, flat land" vs. the more dramatic land in GA.

Now if you asked me to give you my non-GCA answer to your "what is a must play?", my list would go something like this:

- Is it a round with my brother?
- Is it a round with good friends?
- Is it a round at a course where an interesting event was played and maybe I can compare my game to the better players that came before me?

[Michael Whitaker]

I'd consider Caledonia Golf & Fish Club in that category of courses that are historically important, along with Shadow Creek, The Golf Club, TPC at Sawgrass-Stadium Course, Kapalua-Plantation, Pacific Dunes and The Sanctuary.

Basically, I think it means courses that are architecturally significant, not necessarily from a playing experience or "the best" but rather, from the standpoints of design evolution and innovation.

Brad,

I'm a hugh fan of Caledonia (for a variety of reasons), but this really stopped me in my tracks. Why do you feel Caledonia is "historically important" and "architecturally significant... from the standpoint of design evolution?" I'm fascinated.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike, Hugh notwithstanding, I went to their website and couldn't find any pictures of the Caledomnia course or reference to any architects. Just magazine awards.

[ed_getka]

I don't think I would call what is happening in architecture a turning point. I think it is a branch off the direction most golf architecture is still going. I don't know how to find the info, but how many new courses opened in the US in the past 5 years and how many would we consider turning point courses, and is the percentage increasing over the past 5 years?
Craig,
 Bandon is not $400, and I think one of the great things about the place is that the second round is half-price. Can you name 3 other courses/complexes of that quality that offer that sort of enticement. Of course, I could go play Rustic 6 times for the price of 2 at Bandon. But thats beside the point.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Actually Bob my comments are exceptionally well thought out.
You even answered your question in your question!
My comment was regarding the fact that it was man made and did not reflect the "natural" architecture of the courses it is trying to blend in with.
I did not question it's achivement as a piece of work, I agree turning the original land into something that resmbles a quality links course, is indded an achievement..the whole point being that it was land that had to be converted in the first place.
that is not a slam on the architect just a simple fact..for that reason I stand by my original comments.
PD is so far superior a golf course because it looks so natural..for the simple reason that it is..that is my point.
I think the mess that is Whistling Straits, is an even better example of what I am talking about.
It is hard to make a legitimate top notch links course without mother nature laying down the intial blue print and routing.

[Tim_Weiman]

John,

I really don't know what "must play" means, but have to think the list is longer than just Sand Hills. Indeed, I'm thinking "must play" would mean a sampling of post 1960's courses that would give you a sense of what prominent architects have been doing and what different styles came into favor.

For example, its hard to imagine not including a course or two by Pete Dye, maybe PGA WEST, the Ocean Course or even Blackwolf Run. Then, too, you would want to see a totally man-made site like Tom Fazio's Shadow Creek. Conversely, I'd recommend the "8th Wonder" sites like The Old Head in Ireland or Cape Kidnappers in New Zealand.

In terms of "natural sites with good land for golf", I'd add Barnbougle Dunes along with Pacific Dunes. For affordable golf, you would have to sample places like Wild Horse or Rustic Canyon.

Finally, I'd recommend picking several courses of the architect or architects that you find most appealing. For example, if you favor Crenshaw and Coore, by all means go see Friars Head, in addition to Sand Hills.

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