Designated prime time starting times

[Theresa Stotler]

I am wondering if this policital correct term is an effort in discriminating against couples playing together on a Sat/Sun.
We have recently joined aclub that uses this terminology, yet, no one has fully describe the true meaning.  Would appreciate any comments.

[A.G._Crockett]

At my club, 1-2 p.m. on Friday and 9-10 a.m. on Saturday are blocked off for a Skins game and a points game, respectively.  Depending on how many golf association members call up during the week and enter, the entire hour may or may not be used.  (BTW, women can and do play, but everybody from the same tees, full handicaps for both games, with a bothgross and net game in skins.)

Consequently, anybody calling up for a tee time during those slots is told that they are unavailable, even if the caller is calling at the first possible moment on the first possible day.  Something along those lines is in place at most clubs, and maybe that's what you are dealing with.

Now, forgive me, but I'm off to the special day-after-Thanksgiving skins game with 9-10 a.m. reserved tee times!  

[A_Clay_Man]

TS- I don't know if it discriminates against couples, so much as it should discriminate against those who DON'T want to be considerate of all those who come after.

It seems like a reasonable compromise, inorder to ensure that EVERYONE is accommodated.

[rgkeller]

I am wondering if this policital correct term is an effort in discriminating against couples playing together on a Sat/Sun.
We have recently joined aclub that uses this terminology, yet, no one has fully describe the true meaning.  Would appreciate any comments.

Many clubs set aside times for serious golf games, leaving those who see golf primarily as a vehicle for social intercouse to find other times to clog up the course.

Some clubs even charge each member full dues for golf privileges, ending the "spousal discount" that leads too many of the chattering class to interfere with serious golfers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Theresa Stotler,

I am wondering if this policital correct term is an effort in discriminating against couples playing together on a Sat/Sun.

Why did you join the club if you felt that their policies discriminated against couples playing together on Sat/Sun ?
[/color]

We have recently joined aclub that uses this terminology, yet, no one has fully describe the true meaning.

When you went for your interview with the club, why didn't you ask them about this, and any other questions you had concerning club policies ?

That was the perfect opportunity for you to question them about everything, their policies, hours of operation, rules and regulations, etc., etc..   Or, did you feel that questioning them might have jeopardized your chances of being accepted ?

Why raise this issue at this late date ?

Or, now that you're a member, do you want to change the policies that were in force prior to your joining ?

What attracted you to the club in the first place ?[/color]

Would appreciate any comments.

[corey miller]

Often the club makes a distinction between the member and the spouse that the couple, in their efforts to join, fails to recognize.  

Is it actually a couple membership?

Though both people may have gone through the initiation process, it does not mean they are both "members".

[A_Clay_Man]

One modern twist is the ambiguous nature of what constitutes "a couple".

I actually know of one situation where two guys claimed to be "partners" to save on fees.

If the policies of some of the clubs weren't so restrictive, or so unyielding in thier membership classification definition, the scam wouldn't have occurred, at this separate club.

[corey miller]

Adam

My club has 300 members.  We allow spouses and children access to the club and the course at certain specified times.  What is so restrictive and unyielding in that?  The problem as I see it is that we have ~600 people that think they are members.

Pat asks a reasonable question, shouldn't one inquire about the policies before joining?  Would it be unfair if under a "couples membership", one person were designated the primary golfer able to play at any time and the other partner would have to play at other times?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Theresa

Is your club "gender neutral?" In other words, is there a primary member and a spouse? At my former club, primary members(and there were some women, single and married, who were primary members) had weekend access before 11am and spouses could play after 11am. Usually, most couples would play on Sundays after 11am. If the tee sheet was not filled, the head pro would allow couples to play before 11am on an ad hoc basis. We had a couples member-guest tournament and a couples championship- usually referred to as "The Divorce Open."
Most newer clubs allow equal access at any time and do not discriminate.

Steve

[Theresa Stotler]

Thanks for many of your comments.
I will be happy to clear up some questions.
It is not my intent to change any policy that is in place, but we joined as a couple, I asked explicitly if there was any problems of us playing together, all that was told was that you need to fill out a tee time card and that all weekend tee-times are lottery.  Each spouse is not able to fill out a tee time card, however, on the tee time card, there is space for to add names to make a foursome, it is also stated that if you need golfers to make a foursome it would not be a problem.
We joined in Late August, and the tee times were pretty open, so when we played on a Saturday together during prime time, I really don't think it was a concern.
I attended an orientation meeting, once again, this area was not really focused on, even though I continue to speak about playing with you spouse, nothing was ever noted that the two could not play.  It was mentioned that there was no restriction with Junior members as long as they were capable of playing in an allotted time with a specified hadicap.  Thus father/son mother/son etc
One of the reasons we did join was so that we would be able to play together, our handicaps our both single -digit, we are very golf oriented and joined the club for a more consistent playing condition.
Another key point is that there was no interview process form anyone, we signed the papers and that was it. a two-year commitment, with no release clause., Actually, I was told that I could not break the agreement, even when I contacted the membership director during our first month.
When we played we were given all the plusses of the course,
no initiation fee, no food minimum,  no added assesment charges. UNLIMITED GOLF, NO PULL CARTS, WALKING , some restrictions, but if you have a caddy you may walk anytime.  No caddies employed by the course. ALLOTTED PACE OF PLAY 4hours and 10 minutes
This course is also managed by CLUB CORP
I really am unsure of the type of membership , as some materials come addressed as MR & MRS, the billing statement is sent to my name, Actaully I was adviced to put the application in my name so that I do not have to pay for like a  locker, but a man member does.
etc, items like that.  However, when ballots were sent out to vote for the Board of Trustees we both recieved a ballot.

As I mentioned we were told there was no restiction for lady golfers on the weekend, nothing was even mention that you could not golf as couple.
I guess I am just concern that I have joined for the wrong reason, which is I want to play golf, not really concern with meeting and socializing with people, playing golf with new golfers who all you do is look for their wayward tee shot.  
You might think that for $345 plus taxes of 28.00 , $373.00 per month is a good bargain
Will try to keep you abreast of the matter.

[Sean_A]

I am not sure why this debate continues in this day and age.  There should be no tee restriction (with the exception of competitions) based on sex if the club allows both sexes to join.  If a club has different classes of membership with restrictions to non-full members (at a reduced monthly fee), then fair enough.

My club does not use tee times except for competitions.  We are still operating with "women members" who cannot tee off before 11:00 am on weekends (I think; I'm not bothered enough to find out), but have Tuesday until 12:00 for Ladies Day.  I personally think this policy is bogus.  The club should have classes of membership not based on sex, religion or color, but on personal preference of choice.

Ciao

Sean

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

What's not clear is who actually joined.

Theresa,

Did both you and your spouse join, individually, or did just one of you join as THE member ?

If you're not sure of the type of membership you have, why not call the club and ask them to clarify it for you ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Theresa

I would strongly suggest that you take a close look at the membership documents that were signed and/or provided. I presume there are By-Laws and Rules/Regulations as most corporate owned clubs provide these for members.

Remember, an oral contract is not worth the paper it's written on. What you were told and what the documents say can be completely different.

Is there a separate category of membership for couples if, in fact, you joined as a couple?

Steve

[Ted Kramer]

This might shed some light on your stiuation.
I joined a club with my wife this year.
Here is how the deal worked out.

I paid an initiation fee to becomer a member.
My wife did not.
I added some additional money to my annual dues so that my wife could be a "member" too. She gets a locker, and most of the perks that come along with membership.

However, she is considered to be a secondary member, not because she is a woman, she is a secondary member because she did not pay an initiation fee. Being a secondary member, she is not allowed to play during certain hours.

-Ted

[Jerry Kluger]

I think many people try and turn this into something that it really is not.  The question is really a matter of economics and what it will cost the club to operate and how much it will cost each member to do so.  Most people join a club because of the quality of the course, the cost of membership, access to the course when that individual wants to play and sometimes because of other members who they want to play with.  Access to the course when one wants to play and cost of membership are very closely related.  Simply put, there are only so many tee times available on certain days and times and if there are too many members who want those times then anyone who does not get to play when they want is unhappy.  One way to solve this is to limit the number of members who can play at those times.  Some clubs offer weekday memberships with limited weekend access for retirees or perhaps individuals who work on the weekends.  But for the most part the club has to limit the number of members with full access and this usually requires a higher dues structure as there are fewer members who still have to pay the same cost to operate the club.  I know of some clubs that have over 500 members for one course with no restrictions on access to the course for adult members; the result is a lottery for weekend tee times.    

I personally see nothing wrong with the club saying that each membership entitles one individual with unlimited access to the course.  Any other family member including a spouse, a partner, and children,  will have access to the course at the times designated by the club.  When you go to a public course, whether it is a local muni or Pebble Beach, each player pays the same fee to play the course as their operating budget is based upon how much income each tee time will generate.  It is no different for a private club and it is quite common for courses which offer yearly memberships to charge different fees based upon course accessibility and if it is an individual or family membership.  This obiviously is a very critical issue to couples when they join a club and I have to believe that there is some type of document which is signed when joining the club which lays this out.

[Buck Wolter]

I have a friend who was fortunate enough to marry a woman who was a member of a nice club -- his wife who is the member can't play Saturday morning but he can.

Buck

[Brian_Gracely]

Buck,

Is she explcitly not allowed to play, or are they not allowed to play together?

[Buck Wolter]

Brian-
My understanding is Saturday Mornings are Men only.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Buck,

What about the days that are women only.

Can male members play during those times ?

[Buck Wolter]

I'm assuming Tuesday morning Men aren't allowed and since women don't have jobs that evens things up.

Look I'm not making social commentary just reporting second hand facts -- call me Dan Rather. She knew the rules when she paid her money. Probably one reason I'm a public course guy -- I don't want to have the argument about who gets Saturday morning tee times with my wife and she wouldn't support joining a place that didn't give the option.

[Jerry Kluger]

The point is that you should know all these things before you join and it isn't meant to be a fight between the men and the women.  If I joined Burning Tree and didn't tell my wife that she is not allowed on the premises there would be hell to pay even though she hates golf.  

[Theresa Stotler]

In this scenerio, common sense rules.  It seems that the publication was never upgraded and that the pro is so well versed in how his members play, that the designated prime time has become an ancient term. I think this should be the case in all clubs, and that prime times should be for the serious golfer regardless of gender.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Theresa,

Did BOTH you and your husband apply as individual members, each paying the intitiation, fees, and dues ?

Or, did one of you join as a member, with the other as a spouse ?

And, if the latter is the case, did your husband join as the member ?

It appears to be a financial issue, not a gender issue

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Many corporate owned private clubs have eliminated the "traditional" men's and ladies days.