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Clay Huestis

Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« on: November 22, 2004, 09:00:17 PM »
Hi,

I am visiting my parents in Florida, and their club is considering re-doing their greens with Champion Dwarf Bermuda.  The course is about 45 mins north of Tampa, not too far (about 20 miles south) of World Woods.

Does anyone have any experience or info on this variety, or any suggestions for alternatives?  I've read the manufacturer's website, and of course they make it sound great, but just wondering if anyone has dealt with it firsthand.

Thanks.

Tripp_Davis

Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2004, 09:09:16 PM »
Clay,

I have done two projects with it.  It is, in my opinion, the best of the new dwarfs relative to its ability to be the best putting surface.  It does require more work than the others because it is aggressive and it can cause itself problems unless kept tight and "thin".  Frequent topdressing and verti-cutting are required.  However, it can produce a putting surface free of grain and smooth as glass.  It seems to take a lower mowing height and really needs it.  The Champion greens at Memphis Country Club are possible the best greens, of any kind, I have seen.  

I have also used Tif Eagle and it is very good and with the right care it can be almost as good as Champion (provided Champion is maintained at its best).  Tif Eagle is considered easier to handle.  However, it depends on the level of maintenance and if the club is looking for above average or the best.

The growing medium is very important for either and I would suggest Champion does better on a seedbed with more organic, if not almost a topsoil blend.

rgkeller

Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2004, 09:40:36 PM »
I believe Old Marsh just ripped up all their greens to get rid of the stuff.


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2004, 09:51:47 PM »
I am not a supt. but have had quite a bit of experience playing on it.  As a rule, I like it much better than TifEagle and Tifdwarf.  My home course has Champion and they have a bad case of a fungus right now.  Apparently, wet, sunless weather can be problematic.  The other caution I'v heard is that it is a relatively young grass and that there is not enough data under varying conditions.  Also, there is some concern about its tolerance to cold, something that won't be a concern near Tampa.  The comment about Champion requiring a lot of maintenance also rings true.  If your club is one that's tight on the budget, they may wish to try something else.  And if the membership wants them soft so they hold most anything, I hope that the surrounds are well drained.  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2004, 11:06:20 PM »
My experience is that TifEagle is slightly better.  Both require more intense maintenance than TifDwarf, but offer better putting.  For all but the lowest budget munis, I doubt that old bermudas are acceptable anymore.

TifEagle is a genetically engineered grass, having had some chromosone or another radiated, while Champions was an old fashioned "selection" of the lowest growing plants in an older variety.  Thus, there used to be some fear that it would mutate back to earlier genetics, reducing its quality over time.

Of course, any newer variety can't be said to be "time tested" until its, well....tested over time.   There have been loads of new bents and bermudas touted as the answer, only to not pan out, from mild dissapointments to disastrous failures. However, both are big upgrades and make bermuda greens possible.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2004, 07:53:18 AM »
I agree with Jeff.
Tifeagle seems to be a better grass that supposedly will not mutate as Champions.
But caution must be used with all thhe Ultra dwarfs.
I have a course where it never goes dormant so it has to be verti-groomed everyday and verti-cut once a week. And they never exceed .125 HOC.
As Tripp says, in the transition zone, people are finding it works better on a high soil content(push up type green), than a sand base due to dessication in the winter.  But around my area the biggest problem is overseeding.  The grass is so tight that overseeding becomes a problem and most have resorted to painting.  And that is  some  FAST stuff.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2004, 08:04:32 AM »
Mike,

This is OT but what is the deal with painting. At my home course they have painted one of the three nines this winter as an experiment rather than overseeding. I love the overseeded Poa Triv winter greens and am trying to keep an open mind about the painted ones but it seems like they'd be really beat up by February if the dormant Bermuda isn't growing at all, no?

I assume the reason for the painting is to avoid going through the transition period in the spring. Is that basically the idea? BTW, we have TifEagle at our course IIRC or maybe it's TifDwarf. One of those Ultra dwarfs to which you refer in any case.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2004, 11:45:36 AM »
"The grass is so tight that overseeding becomes a problem and most have resorted to painting.  And that is  some  FAST stuff. "  Mike Young.

Mike,

I see not overseeding as a benefit of the hybrids, even at Jeff's heavily contoured greens at GSW.  The Supt. does cut them a bit higher for a month or more before they stop growing, and he pours lots of water (way too much for my taste) which seems to keep them a bit slower.

The two transition periods of bermuda greens is my biggest objection to that grass, though I think that most superintendents, under pressure to keep costs down, don't verti-cut, groom, light-sand, and roll the greens enough.  By not overseeding, the transitions seem to have been minimized somewhat.

The hybrid bermudas have been sold to some clubs down here as a much lower-cost maintenance alternative to bent.  There could very well be a differential, but in talking with a few supts., most opine that to approximate the performance of bent (it cannot be matched), the hybrids can be/are nearly as expensive.

The paint on green which have not been overseeded is primarily for aesthetic reasons.  Our greens have been painted in part to hide the fungus damage (it hasn't worked) and the chemicals used to fight the disease.  If we have a cold, dry winter (not likely at this time), I wonder if we will be putting on dirt come March.

S. Huffstutler

Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2004, 03:07:24 PM »
Check out http://www.cturf.com/ for a list of courses with Champion Bermudagrass. It it pretty well tested. A lot of courses down here in SW Fla are putting it in and in my opinion it is superior to TifEagle in playability and maintainability.

Steve

Clay Huestis

Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2004, 05:36:05 PM »
Excellent.  Many thanks to everyone who has responded, this is exactly the type of information I was looking for.

One of the main attractions for my parents' club is that the Champion is no till, and therefore can be put in with the greens closed for only about 6 to 8 weeks, as opposed to several months with other varieties.  On the other hand, it sounds like the Champion may be higher maintenance than they would like.

S. Huffstutler

Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2004, 10:11:19 PM »
"No till" is a great option, we will be doing our TifDwarf greens using this method next summer. It cuts the price of regrassing at least in half. Maintenence is something that must be taken into account, though when they do it...if they aren't prepared to take care of it properly, they may be better off with thier dwarf instead. Tifdwarf can be an awfully good putting surface for signifigantly less money and effort.

steve

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2004, 06:13:37 AM »
RG Keller,
  Old Marsh did just renovate and actually opened back up about 3 weeks ago, but they re did their greens with Tifeagle.

  The opinion of most is that Tifeagle is the south's answer to Bentgrass. We have "eagle" eagle here at Long Cove. During the summer months, every 2 weeks, we verticut in 4 directions and topdress. We also groom at least twice a week. Given the right attention and care, Tifeagle cane be a great surface. We cut ours below 1/8 without even thinging about it. My opinion is Tifeagle is superior to Champion....

 The reson behonf painting it to eliminate the competition between the triv and bermuda during spring green up. Without the competition, you will be able to have a stronger stand of bermuda faster. The only scary things about painting, when done right, is you really can control the speeds other than water. They can get very fast very quickly. A handle full of courses are doing here on Hilton Head and actually the greens are pretty good to put on, but there are at course that have lower rounds being played on them...as to not take the paint off.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 06:18:13 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2004, 08:27:26 AM »
My only experience with Champion is at Yeamans Hall; we planted it when we rebuilt their greens.  Jim Yonce, the superintendent at Yeamans, maintains the Champion exactly the opposite of how they sell it ... he keeps it lean so he doesn't have to mow and verticut as aggressively.  Their members are very happy with the result.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2004, 09:16:04 AM »
Mr. Doak,
  I played with Jim here at Long Cove on Monday and we talked about this same topic. He stated that he doesn't have to roll much either. I played at Yeaman's about a month ago and thought that the greens were great.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2004, 11:11:32 AM »
I agree with Tom that it has to be kept lean especially if it never goes dormant but even keeping it lean we are verti-grooming almost everyday in areas where it is not dormant.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2004, 12:46:08 PM »
Does anyone have any good info on how Champion does in a salt spray environment?  Would the lean-style maintenance practices mentioned actually aid in it's ability to withstand such conditions?
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Tripp_Davis

Re:Champion Dwarf Bermuda
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2004, 09:03:37 PM »
From a practical standpoint, I would be very careful with going no till from Bermuda to Bermuda.  It is very difficult to kill out the previous Bermuda and it may cause what many would think is a mutation.  We no tilled greens on a renovation in Memphis, but we were going from Bent to Champion.  

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