[TEPaul]

"Serious question, if you and I played at this level, which would you rather be: USGA Mid-Amateur Champion or Crump Cup Champion?"

That's an interesting question. At the Crump Cup dinner the master of ceremonies every year does take the time to point out and ask to stand all the members of the field who have impressive records in such things as national championships. It's impressive---an array of past US and British amateur champions, past Mid-Am champions, Senior Am champions, a whole slew of past and sometimes present Walker Cuppers etc. It'd be interesting to take a poll to see what they'd say about that. My sense is not one of them would give up a national championship for the Crump but who knows.

As far as what Shivas said about none of the "folks" out in the heartland knowing about the Crump Cup, I'm pretty sure that's the way PVGC likes it---they'd just as soon fly under the radar screen in a lot of ways.

[Michael Moore]

You know, being a Maine Yankee, the Masters has always sort of given me the creeps, and I do have this fantasy of winning a US Amateur semifinal and having Roger Maltbie jamming a microphone into my face and saying "Wow, you're going to the Masters" and me saying, "Well, that's just another golf tournament, and there's plenty of those between now and then, including this one."

As John Daly said, "It's just another tournament. If I get goosebumps on Magnolia Drive its because its cold and I have the window down."

[JakaB]

Shivas,

That is an interesting question...Is Spider Miller a God because he won the Mid-Am or becasue winning came with a Masters Invite.   I remember being at the practice round the year he played and seeing him play 16 with Arnold and Fuzzy....That was the year Tiger won his first Masters and it was a bigger thrill for me seeing a forty something regular guy out there then seeing Tiger being Tiger.   You even play in a tournament now with Spider in the field and there is a buzz about the event....I think it is the whole Masters...Crows Nest thing more than the Mid-Am...

[George Pazin]

PV was kind enough to recently host a GAP event, which was open to the public. Additionally, it is my understanding that the Sunday of the Crump Cup is still open to the public as well. I'd say they've done more than anyone has a right to expect, in terms of supporting the game and allowing people to see their masterpiece.

I do kinda like the thought of Oakmont at the top, however...

[TEPaul]

John B:

If I'm not mistaken, Spider Miller has won two US Mid-Ams and one Crump Cup. Miller was lucky to win that second Mid-Am though and there's no way in holy hell he ever could've done it if he hadn't played a practice round with me where I showed him exactly how to do it.

What was that other tournament you said he was well known for playing in?

[JakaB]

TEPaul,

That is impressive....and for that alone I will disagree with Matt Ward and agree with you that Pine Valley is a Championship Course.

So....did you help Spider win the second Mid-Am or the Crump Cup.....now I know why Spider is a God and the fat guy from Tennessee is just another guy who could kick my ass...

[JSlonis]

Guys.....

For cryin' out loud...

The Crump Cup is a fantastic tourney to get a chance to play in.  Pine Valley is my favorite place, and I look forward to it more than any other tournament of the year.  It is a very solid field on a "CHAMPIONSHIP" golf course...there aren't many events during the year where you could wind up playing a former National Champion or a Walker Cupper...not just in the Championship Flight, but in the 2nd or 3rd Flight too.

BUT...

The USGA Mid-Am is a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.  You simply can't and shouldn't compare the two.  There are some outstanding tournaments all over the country that attract top mid-amateurs, The Coleman, The Travis, The Hugh Wilson, and many more I've never even heard of.  Each of these events are great in their own right and don't need to be compared with anything else.  That being said, the pinnacle of Amateur golf is the US AM and for mid-am's, the US Mid-Am.

There is no need to argue any further!!

Shivas,
I had the chance to play with Joel Hirsch for the first time during the Fishers Island tourney this year.  He was both a great player and a true gentleman.  It was indeed a treat.

[JSlonis]

Shivas,

I understood your point, and I know it wasn't meant as a "slight".  There are certain things called "facts" that many like to dismiss.

I think for the Crump Cup to be even compared to a national championship is a great thing for the Crump Cup.  It's no slight to say that the USGA MID-AM is nationally more coveted.  A good friend of mine lost in the 1st round of the 2nd Flight at the Crump Cup this year and then...a week and a half later...

WON the USGA Mid-Am!!  Now every time I talk to him he always says..."I can't believe I'm playing in the @%#$ MASTERS."  It's pretty cool to live out every little kids golf dream.

To answer the question of the topic of this thread:

Pine Valley is most certainly a "championship calibre" golf course.  The recent tee additions were done perfectly, and enhanced what was already a great course.  With a few more additions, the course should be around 7000 yds, par 70.

[TEPaul]

"So....did you help Spider win the second Mid-Am or the Crump Cup.....now I know why Spider is a God and the fat guy from Tennessee is just another guy who could kick my ass... "

Did I help him win the Mid-Am? I did a lot more than that--I practically won the thing for him! I felt generous that day and I actually told him every single thing I knew about how to play national level tounament golf. I sort of felt sorry for the guy, you know, the poor fellow had only won one Mid-Am before that so I figured he could use my help. So I told him everythng I knew and like some other guys I've played with here and there he had the good sense to not pay one damn bit of attention to a single thing I told him and I figured that's pretty much why I practically won the damn tournament for him!

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

One time I played this yahoo from Connecticutt I'd never even heard of in the Crump Cup and I doubt it was even in the Championship flight and the next week I'll-be-go-to-Hell if he doesn't go all the way to the finals of the US Mid-Am and just loses the championship to his good friend Jim Taylor (who actually may've been in the Crump the week before!).

The very first time I played in that tournament I was down there somewhere around the bar after qualifying, sort of in a dream world just to be there and a bunch of guys came into the bar and started laughing at me. So I said, "What did I do wrong?" They said the pairings just went up in the other room and guess who you drew in the first round you little patsy? So I said who did I draw then, and they said Jay Friggin' Sigel (something like a nine time winner of the Crump Cup).

I said; "So, what, let me at that big chump, I'll wax his ass eight ways to Sunday!" But it was still fun playing him, I guess, although somehow he managed to slip by me something like 7 and 6. The truly odd happenstance though was it was me playing in the second round!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

Pine Valley qualifies as a championship golf course under my criteria.

Mike Sweeney,

I now see the results of a BC education  
What were the entrance requirements when you applied ?
The Crump Cup over the USGA Mid-Amateur Championship ? ?
I'm begining to wonder if you could gain admitance today ?

Shivas,

There is no comparison.
Winning a USGA Championship is THE pinnacle of amateur golf.

Winning a USGA championship means that you played your way into the competition, played at a neutral site, survived another 36 hole qualifier and then beat every one you faced in 6 more matches, against a National/International field.

Getting to the Crump Cup requires an invitation to those perceived to be on the "A" list.

Winning the Crump Cup is a wonderful feat, but, it's NOT to be confused with winning a USGA championship.

[TEPaul]

"TEP, you've said it before - there's golf and there's tournament golf.  Well, I agree 100%.  But there's also tournament golf against the very best competition.  And for that reason, I can't find any way to equate winning the Crump and winning the Mid-Am."

Shivas:

I'm not sure where this subject came from exactly. There isn't any way to EQUATE the Crump Cup and winning the US Mid-Am.

As Pat said the Crump Cup is an invitational tournament and certainly USGA championships aren't that. While the Crump has always had an impressive array of national champions in its field, it's still an invitational that invites it's best members and an impressive array of others. But the Crump is probably somewhat stratified compared to a USGA championship. There're probably a fair number of Crump competitors who haven't even qualified for a USGA championship, but thinking about that I think that'd be small. If they asked all those who'd played in USGA championships to stand up at the dinner I bet practically the entire room would get up.

I got into the tournament about 15 years ago I'm sure for what I did around here, in this local section. I tried to qualify for USGA events almost every year for maybe 20 years and only made four but I only went to one and didn't come close to making match play.

So as cool as the Crump is it's not the same thing as winning a USGA national championship. You know what Arnold Palmer said about winning the US Amateur---he said it was the toughest tournament he ever won---and he still says that today.  

[Sam Sikes]

  In my opinion, PV is unmatched in terms of architectural originality.  I am not sure it was ever meant to be a championship course, but that doesn't take away from the fact that when the greens are a little hard and a little fast, the course is a bitch to score on.  Some of the fairways at pine valley make NGLA look like Olympic.  They are huge, but just beyond lie eminent double bogies.  The fact of the matter is that the members could give a shit what anyone thinks about the place, it is the unanimous no.1 golf course in the world, and I agree.  There are not two holes, greens, or shots that even closely resemble each other.  Furthermore, I love the concept of designing holes on the edge of par, and PV has tons.  NO. 1 for sure, but championship not sure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sam Sikes,

Which of the fairways at Pine Valley make NGLA seem like Olympic ?

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, the fairways of PVGC which have always been generous in size are interesting for this reason---#2, #7, #15 and #18 are fairly straight forward but the rest, although generous, are really fascinating in how multi-form they are for various reasons and in various ways! The more I think of #17 the more I really do wish they'd consdier restoring that right alternate fairway. It's the only fairway area on the entire course that got lost from the original design.

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