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Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2004, 08:16:36 PM »
Tom Doak:

I think you're right, enthusiasm for a site is good. But I've heard firsthand, interesting stories about another successful golf architect who takes the opposite approach.

In other words, knowing every other architect interviewing for the job is going to be enthusiastic about the site, he more or less says: "I'm going to have to think about what we might be able to do here to create an interesting golf course."

I hear that leaves developers somewhat perplexed, wanting to hear more! An interesting strategy, I think. Risky though, I presume.

As for municipal bidding processes... they are a joke. I can say that from practical experience, "Requests for Proposals" rarely result in selection of the most talented architect for a specific project. They are a huge headache I've elected to stay away from too, after having completed a couple.
jeffmingay.com

Rick Baril

Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2004, 09:07:21 PM »
This thread reminded me of a story I once heard about Joe Finger vying for a commission.  I can't remember where I heard the story but it would be interesting to know if anyone else heard it or something similar or can verify whether or not it is true.

The Readers Digest version is:  Mr. Finger was invited to review a site for a proposed golf course (somewhere "out West").  In an effort to demonstrate his enthusiasm and desire to know the site better, he told the prospective client he needed to sleep on the site -  apparently to commune with, and become intimate with the intended golf course site.  Apparently, he did spend the night sleeping under the stars - listening to the land and absorbing it's magic.

In the version I heard, Mr. Finger did not get the job.

So, is this an urban legend or is it an architect joke i.e. insert a different name for JF??




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2004, 09:21:52 AM »
I've never heard the "sleeping on the site" story before.

The best I know of first-hand was an architect competing with us for a consulting job who told the committee he had "some great ideas" for the course ... but would not elaborate until they signed him up!  He didn't get that job, by the way.

Jeff M:  I am not really talkative by nature.  When I get on a site, right away I'm seeing the problems we'll have to overcome with the routing, and I tend to be quiet while I am thinking those through and trying to speculate how good the course could be.  I've heard that Bill Coore is the same way; he just wants to think.  [This is one of the most difficult aspects of the collaboration thing ... my own guys know when I want them to be quiet and let me think, but clients and others do not always understand, and I have to let them be comfortable in their own process.]

However, when I have an observation about something on the site, I've learned to say it aloud.  And I ask good questions of the clients.  It helps.  And I think it comes out differently than it does from the salesman/architects who just start selling themselves the moment they show up.

Pat M:  Yes, there is always a chance that by not pursuing a particular job I will put myself out of the running for something better down the road.  If I thought about that I wouldn't have written The Confidential Guide, and I wouldn't post here, either.  The fact that I don't pursue everything with equal enthusiasm, helps when we find a job we want.  And since I only want to find two or three "big fish" a year, I don't waste much time thinking about the ones that got away.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2004, 05:07:34 PM by Tom_Doak »

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2004, 01:00:01 PM »
jmkirk:

The site in question is located in the far southern part of the town in a bucolic setting known as Happy Valley.  That in itself is a unique name for a course and it was known by that name all during the long planning process.  But..............the City officials and the golf course management company decided it was too generic and named it after the endangered butterfly that lives on-site: The Calippee Preserve Golf Course.  

The majority of the site is rolling to gentle but it does encompass some steeper areas on the east, south and west perimeters as it climbs up the bases of the surrounding hills.  This should present some interesting shot opportunities once all is said and done.  But to answer your question, none of the slopes are so significant that they were responsible for higher than normal construction costs.  It is a prototypical northern California setting, with the valley below and oak tree and grassland covered hillsides above.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2004, 01:19:12 PM »
The site in question is located in the far southern part of the town in a bucolic setting known as Happy Valley.  That in itself is a unique name for a course...

It would have been a wonderful name for the course -- but not unique. Surprisingly (to me), there's a Happy Valley Golf Club on Rook Lane, in Chaldon, Surrey, England: http://www.letsgothere.co.uk/lgtnet/attraction/0014234-0-Happy%20Valley%20Golf%20Club.aspx
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2004, 01:20:37 PM »
To al the architects,

What are the cultural differences you guys deal with when trying to get international jobs? Being US based how do you over come any cultural disadvantages?

Rick Baril

Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2004, 02:50:55 PM »
It ain't easy, bein as weez culturally disadvantaged and all ;)

Rick Baril

Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2004, 12:27:54 PM »
After posting the “sleeping on the site” story it occurred to me – this may inadvertently start a legend.  For the record, that’s the story I heard.

Bill, sorry for the flippant comment before, but I couldn’t resist – it was such a perfect setup.

I will give you my thoughts, from our experience – for what they are worth.  Just to let you know, I have been traveling to Europe and North Africa (and more recently, Mexico) for the past 18 years working on various projects.
 
Foreign markets:
•   Obviously, the first commission is the most difficult.  Similar to the “new kid in town syndrome” in the US, foreign clients are concerned about an architect’s ability to function well in an unfamiliar environment.  Once you establish that you can actually perform in a foreign country, it is logical to be considered for additional commissions.  
•   Communication – not only language but “comprehension”.  In this profession we are always communicating concepts and ideas.  To explain this problem/point in very simple terms:  When you say “big, expensive, difficult, demanding, etc.” it means something different in the U.S. compared to Europe, Mexico, Japan, etc.  This is an “adjective problem”.  
•   Language problem - In the “sales phase” the individuals are normally highly sophisticated and multi-lingual.  Obviously, a translator is required at times.  
•   “Cultural disadvantages” – IMO our foreign clients are much more “formal”.  There is a “protocol” for all things and it is best to know it beforehand or be an observant and quick learner i.e. the “shotgun” handshake is unacceptable in a Muslim country, where touching someone with the “dirty hand” is bad form.  In Europe, you may end up kissing a client but probably not on the “first date”.  However, it would be appropriate to kiss his wife (both cheeks) on the “first date” – who would’ve guessed?  Showing someone the bottom of your shoe (sitting with legs crossed) is bad form in some cultures.    

I have wrestled with the reason why “foreign” projects seek US architects (which may be a subject for another thread).  I think this point is too complex to address, as it relates to your question.  

However, we always ask ourselves these questions when contending for a foreign commission:
•   Does the client understand the project and the market?
•   From a market perspective, is our involvement justified?
•   Does our involvement benefit the project?

The answers to these questions are important because you want each project to be successful, and your involvement should be definitely justified.  As we’ve learned, serving a foreign project requires a significant commitment of time, energy and resources – not to mention the trauma it causes the family.  So, it is only logical to assume foreign work if it is done for all the right reasons.  

Hope I’ve grasped the essence of your question, and provided some meaningful answers.


Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2004, 02:38:37 PM »
Rick,

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. Your response was exactly the essence of my question. International work does add a whole layer of complexity which I'm not sure is always recognized.

RBSpann

Re:How do architects get jobs?
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2004, 03:27:50 PM »
Rick,  The Joe Finger story you mentioned got my attention.  After being associated with him for a long time, I never heard that story regarding him, but here is how it may have originated.  After Joe's retirement, I was part of the design team that had already been hired to do a new municipal course and recreation facility in Santa Fe, NM.  The team was headed by a local architect, Mark Hogan.  I think it was Mark's idea to have the team spend a night camping out onsite to both impress the client with our dedication, and to become intimately familiar with the land.  It was also a good excuse to grill some steaks over an open fire and drink some cold beer under the stars!  I think the rest of the team bailed out, but since I had flown all the way over from Houston, Mark and I ended up camping out on what is now the 13th fairway at the Links de Santa Fe course, and enjoying all the steak and beer ourselves.  We got up at dawn and walked the property, routing about 75% or 80% of the holes that morning and the rest at a design meeting at his office that afternoon.  

Anyway, I doubt if Mr. Finger ever did that, but I know he did tour sites on horseback a few times (even though he was anything but a stereotypical cowboy Texan).  It is interesting how certain myths evolve...