Cali contingent... Bel-Air?

[John_Conley]

Hey left-coasters...

A friend qualified for the Senior Am this year.  He assumed bent greens while I guessed poa annua - Golfcourse.com says it is poa.  Anyway, he's seen it once about 25 years ago and remembers little.  Does anyone know anything about the course that a competitor should know before practice rounds?  Typical problems for Floridians in USGA events are around the greens as putting and chipping around superfast bent is problematic for bermuda guys.

Thanks in advance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Conley,

That's what practice rounds are for, to familiarize the competitors with the golf course and conditions.

Nothing anyone could say will prepare him as well as those practice rounds.

[John_Conley]

C'mon Dude, you make it sound like a dumb question.  Prior to traveling 3000 miles, a golfer can work on something.  I presume a long hitter won't hit all drivers, but that wasn't the case for him last year at the Virginian.  Timuquana - where you played - saw a good number of driving holes where placement was important (i.e. 3-woods, 2-irons).

One friend got back from Scotland last month and told me he wished he'd worked on more low-flighted shots prior to going over there.

[Thomas_Brown]

Poa.

Depending on his teeball, I'd say the most important factor is approach play 6i - PW

[Michael Dugger]

C'mon Dude, you make it sound like a dumb question.  Prior to traveling 3000 miles, a golfer can work on something.  I presume a long hitter won't hit all drivers, but that wasn't the case for him last year at the Virginian.  Timuquana - where you played - saw a good number of driving holes where placement was important (i.e. 3-woods, 2-irons).

Sorry, he has a penchant for doing that, but is unaware of such.

Go figure?

It's is probably we who have the problem, John

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

It is a dumb question.

What you and Michael Dugger fail to realize is that comments from others about the golf course, its architecture, play and conditions will only predispose the competitor to those views, which may not be in their best interest.

Let the competitor get there a day early and get three practice rounds in so that he can see, evaluate and decide for himself, how to play the golf course.

Michael Dugger,

I agree with your last sentence  

[Brad Klein]

John, tell him to drop his entire practice routine and work on nothing but hitting high-cut 9-woods. No doubt he'll take casual advice from outsiders and in the process alter his entire game.

Obviously you're trying to do your friend a service, but if he needs advice like this it's hopeless anyway. My bet is he's good enough to figure out what he needs when he gets there. Of course if he's really smart he'll have a conversation with the superintendent.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Hey Dugger, how much competitive or tournament golf have you played?  I will listen to Pat on this one.

[John_Conley]

Brad:

Good points.  I think the feedback he was looking for might have been something like "it is tight in places like Timucuana" - "very visually intimidating like Bonita Bay's swamp courses" - or "doesn't look like much, but you'll find yourself with a lot of delicate flop shots if you miss the small greens".

As mentioned, a practice round will be telling.  But what if he hasn't time for adequate preparation on treacherous greens or learns a day before play that he needs to break out an old 1-iron?  Such things may help.  We aren't talking about a touring professional golfer who deals with venue changes weekly.

Learning that it may not be windy could give him a comfort level in practicing with a certain set of irons that may flight the ball higher than his other set.

Mr. Hearst:

While you may be listening to Pat, my friend - whose playing accomplishments are too numerous to note but includes winning the Massachusetts Open - has played tournament golf and was merely wondering what to expect.  I don't know that people from other parts of the country realize what troubles golfers from Florida have had in USGA events.  Our courses are flat with bermuda greens.  One friend three putted his way around the Homestead in the Mid-Am on the first day.  He obviously could have prepared by practice putting on our area's fastest green before going up there to be embarrassed the first time he ever saw bent grass.

[John_Conley]

John,

It is a dumb question.

I'll tell Curt.  I'm sure he'll thank you for the assistance.

[Michael Dugger]

Hey Dugger, how much competitive or tournament golf have you played?  I will listen to Pat on this one.

Hey Hearst,

How much time to spend with your nose up Mucci's ass?

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Conley,

I think the feedback he was looking for might have been something like "it is tight in places like Timucuana"

Nothing anyone could have said about Timaquana would have prepared me for the play of that golf course. but, the practice rounds did.  Some things are self evident, especially to a player of Curt's ability and experience.

It sounds like you are the one trying to volunteer information, rather than Curt seeking it.[/color]

- "very visually intimidating like Bonita Bay's swamp courses" - or "doesn't look like much, but you'll find yourself with a lot of delicate flop shots if you miss the small greens".

John, where, at a USGA event, aren't you going to have delicate flop shots if you miss the green ?
Surely you see the nature of your queries.  They are dumb. [/color]

As mentioned, a practice round will be telling.  But what if he hasn't time for adequate preparation on treacherous greens or learns a day before play that he needs to break out an old 1-iron?  

Let me see if I understand this.

Months ago, he entered a USGA event being held in California, but he doesn't have time for adequate preparation ?  Why enter ?

The USGA and the host club usually provide for two formal practice rounds, however, it's not unusual for the host club to allow more, sometimes giving competitors the entire week before the tournament to practice.

If he thinks he may need a 1-iron or any specialty club that he uses, he'll pack it with him, and determine the set of clubs that he will use, prior to teeing off on saturday, the first day of qualifying.[/color]

Such things may help.  We aren't talking about a touring professional golfer who deals with venue changes weekly.

Learning that it may not be windy could give him a comfort level in practicing with a certain set of irons that may flight the ball higher than his other set.

John, your inexperience and imagination are getting the better of you.  Now you want to predict the wind, and select a custom set of irons to deal with wind conditions, hell, have him FED-X several sets in case it snows, rains, is windy, isn't windy, is arid, or all of the above.

While Curt may not be a touring professional, I suspect that this isn't his first time to the dance.  He knows what to do, he's done it many times before.

Your motive is both well intentioned and misquided and I hope you don't mind my having fun with you.

I've played Bel Air a good number of times and there is nothing I could offer that would replace the on site experience and preparation he will derive from the practice rounds.  Tell him I wish him good luck and to look up my friend Jerry Greenbaum when he gets there.  Jerry is from Atlanta and South Florida, a seasoned competitor and a nice fellow.[/color]

Mr. Hearst:

While you may be listening to Pat, my friend - whose playing accomplishments are too numerous to note but includes winning the Massachusetts Open - has played tournament golf and was merely wondering what to expect.  I don't know that people from other parts of the country realize what troubles golfers from Florida have had in USGA events.  Our courses are flat with bermuda greens.  One friend three putted his way around the Homestead in the Mid-Am on the first day.  He obviously could have prepared by practice putting on our area's fastest green before going up there to be embarrassed the first time he ever saw bent grass.



John, at my first USGA amateur, I too three putted my way around the golf course, but, fast greens are no longer a surprise at USGA events, unless weather or agronomic conditions are abnormal.

You did say he won the Massachussetts Open, so I'm sure he has an understanding of non-Florida grasses and conditions.

With two or more practice rounds under his belt he'll do fine.

You're a good friend, but, possibly a terrible caddy  
Think positive, not negative and you'll score better.
[/color]

[HamiltonBHearst]

Dugger

I have not met Pat, but I am waiting for you to make a coherant post on the vagaries of play in a USGA event.  Please tell us about what preparation you made for the fraternity tournament last year?  Again I will listen to Pat on this issue.

[Lou_Duran]

JC,

Bel-Air is a course where positioning the shots is much more important than length.  It would be a course that favors a Justin Leonard much more than Tiger, Vij, or Phil.  The course has all sorts of bends and contours, somewhat quirky around the greens, and seems to play much more difficult than it looks.  In my opinion, it is one where home court advantage is a big factor.  So, if I was your friend, I would spend as much time as possible studying the individual holes as opposed to spending all my time at the driving range trying to groove a swing.  A good local caddy would help a bunch.

[John_Conley]

Pat:

Before you went to Jacksonville, someone may have characterized Timuquana as "pretty flat, tight in places, and rather straightforward".  While it may not help, I'd be alarmed if you never asked anyone about the venue.

I called Curt to congratulate him on his qualifying and he asked if I knew anything about Bel-Air.  He said he expected bent like he played on Eastward Ho and I told him to assume poa annua since it is in California.  Then he's asked me if GCA.com had a write-up.  He's still surprised there are no pictures.  We're not talking about Bert Yancey trying to make models of the course in his basement out of styrofoam and popsicle sticks.  He's just curious since he can't remember much.

When you ask about delicate flop shots, you fail to recall that Pinehurst was groomed with chipping areas where other shots were possible for the 1999 U.S. Open.  Some venues allow for putting from off the green while others are hack and hope out of knee-deep cabbage.  Fine if you don't know, but it is just a harmless question.

Regarding preparation... the player in question WORKS full-time, an oddity among the senior set.  He actually has to ASK FOR DAYS OFF to go play in things.  Steve Earsley, the #1 ranked player in the nation according to some such list, hasn't had to work since I met him in an event nearly a decade ago.  Obviously they will approach things differently.

You talk about playing MORE than two practice rounds by arriving a week early?  Yes, this is possible for some.  Most years saw him not even enter an event he is capable of winning because it was too onerous to fit in to his schedule.  Timuquana changed all that because it was close to home.  2003 was a given due to an exemption, but 2004 is a result of seeing how much fun 2002 was.  He could have done that if it were in Florida again, but the trip to Los Angeles will allow for at most the two formal rounds you speak of.

I don't know if he wants to use his Yonex irons, a set of Mizunos, or the Titleist oldies he used in the 70s.  Nor do I care.  But it was YOU who said it wouldn't matter to know anything about the venue.  Certainly a player may select a different set of irons if it were in Scotland, no?  I'm not advocating changing to new clubs, but one may consider from among the sets they use regularly.  Professional bowlers travel with up to FORTY balls.  They're good bowlers, but they still need to have their gear to adapt to lane conditions.  Knowing that a place may have synthetic could mean only taking TEN of those 40 balls.  (Call Jim Stefanich if you don't think there are similarities between the sports as it relates to preparation.  He's the only one I can think of that would be a source worth seeking.)

Pretty sure he's played a bit with Greenbaum in the AL-FL-GA Challenge matches every fall.  Jerry will also know Joe Cristillo and possibly David Boesel.

Best of luck in your next event.  Even if it is at Interlachen or Rock Springs Ridge there is nothing I can share that will help you.

[Michael Dugger]

Hearst,

Enough with the teenage hijinx, will ya?  

My point is that it is not the thrust of what Pat Mucci has to say that is problematic, it is his delivery.

Obviously, John Conley felt the same way too, or he would not have said, "C'mon Dude, you make it sound like a dumb question" in his third post of this thread.

And I know for fact that Pat ruffles many other tailfeathers in this same fashion.  

Why?  Does it increase what we learn around here?  Does it give us warm fuzzy feelings in our bellies.  

Whether it was a dumb question or was not a dumb question, it is in poor taste and borderline disrespectful to talk to someone like that.

Everyone likes to point out how we, or I, need thicker skin around here, but I say screw that!!!

I get enough static and B.S. from the rest of the world.  My job, the asshole driving 50 mph in the fast lane, the clerk at the county courthouse, my customers. etc.  Catching attitude from someone on a golf website is something that I personally find totally UNCALLED FOR and stupid.

If you cannot understand that, Hearst, I am afraid I cannot help you further.

Goodnight now

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

Are you aware of the relationship between John Conley and myself ?

A simple YES or NO answer will suffice.

Absent your knowledge of our relationship, how can you intelligently categorize my remarks to John ?

This is why it's important to get all of the facts before opening up your mouth, if for no other reason then to change feet.

P.S.  For someone who allegedly doesn't like "attitude" you've displayed a pronounced and distinguished history of it.
John Conley is fully capable of speaking for himself, he doesn't need your gratuitous opinions and critiques.


John Conley,

I understand a "general curiosity", we all have those.
But, nothing anyone could have said to me would have replaced or come close to the value of playiing a single practice round at the tournament site.  I regret not getting to those sites an extra day early for many reasons, some of them logistical, especially if you're bringing family along.

But seeking playing specifics when 99.9 % of the participants on this site aren't familiar with Curt's game and his thought processes, is an exercise in mental masturbation, something many on this site are all too familiar with.

I didn't suggest arriving a week early.
I suggested that some clubs permit informal practice rounds in addition to the scheduled ones, and that an extra day, or more, might benefit Curt.  In retrospect, when having to put the time and effort into traveling that far to play in a USGA event, I'd try to get there early to play an additional round or two, if the club permited it.  It allows one to survey and evaluate the golf course at their leisure, rather then trying to gleen that information while playing in a practice round with others, in a semi-social, semi-competitive setting.

Playing in a USGA event is a thrill and a special golfing milestone, and if you're fortunate enough to qualify, and you have to travel across the country, you should try to take the extra effort to try to improve your chances for success.

I hope that you're not suggesting that if he qualifies and starts winning his matches that he'll have to default and return to work, are you ?  That's a pressure noone needs.

If not, an additional day of familiarization with the golf course can be a value added.  It may also be of benefit when trying to adjust to the time zone and body clock changes.

In case you're not aware of this, the USGA Senior Amateur is not a sanctioned bowling event.  However, Curt is free to take as many bowling balls with him, as the airlines will allow.

In addition, he's not going to Scotland in October, but, to Southern California, the latitudinal equivalent of Columbia, South Carolina.

Where, exactly, would a golfer practice on playing conditions almost unique to the tournament site ?

Wish Curt good luck and tell him not to be afraid of riding in elevators and walking across suspension bridges during his rounds.

Did he elect to take a club caddy ?

[Michael Dugger]

Fine work Mr. Pat Mucci!

But save your preaching for the pulpit.

We all knew you were capable of answering John's question like a civilized human being, you just "can't help" being a surly old bastard most of the time, right?

Must not have gotten enough attention as a kid, is that it, Private Pile?

It is too bad that in you couldn't have answered Mr. Conley's query with such eloquence the first time around, I was considering you for the short list of Christmas card recipients this winter.  

You eventually come around.  

Just a little too late for my tastes

If I knew that you did not normally act like you have on this thread I would say your relationship with Mr. Conley had relevance, however considering you talk like this all the time, I cannot say that I see what bearing your "friendship" with Mr. Conley has on the matter.

So the answer to your question is no.

Now, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it does it make noise?

Sweet dreams Pumpkin

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

John Conley,

That's what practice rounds are for, to familiarize the competitors with the golf course and conditions.

Nothing anyone could say will prepare him as well as those practice rounds.

Tell me what's surly about my post.  It's a straight forward, honest answer, eloquent in its brevity.

You are the one who continues to personalize posts in a hostile manner.  Just look at your post to Hamilton Hearst and myself.  Yet, you cry foul whenever you're brought to task, criticized or reprimanded, almost like a pendantic child throwing a temper tantrum.  If you can't take it, like you give it, the heat that is, then stay out of the kitchen.  

And, don't pretend to speak for others.

Any moron who's been on this site as long as you have should know that participants on this site have personal relationships with one another, such as myself and a variety of people, ie., TEPaul, Tommy Naccarato, etc., etc., and that the banter between us is not to be taken at face value, universally,
as you would lead others to believe.

Lurkers and participants should not have their views distorted, misquided, tainted or twisted because you're obtuse..... to those relationships, of course.

The next time two people you don't know are having a dialogue, bantering back and forth, stay out of it, or suffer the consequences of your intrusion.
[/color]

[Michael Dugger]

John,

It is a dumb question.

I guess my problem is that I was always taught the only dumb question is the one that isn't/wasn't asked.  

Guess mom was wrong.  

Pat, you horses *%#$, why must you fail to realize that your "east coast frankness" deters some people on this website from asking questions, for fear that they might get a eruption from Mt. Mucci, let alone get embarrassed in public.


If you cannot concede that it is possible you have a penchant for being abrasive with your grammer, I do not envision a scenario in which we see eye to eye.

I just do not see the "value" in your methods.  It is probably the laid-back Oregonian in me!
 
I'm done here.....I am sorry to all.  I will bury my head back in the sand and stew from the privacy of my own yurt.  

((It will give me a chance to figure out how I can gain access to you and Hamilton Hearst's beloved Garden City ))    

[Patrick_Mucci]

I guess my problem is that I was always taught the only dumb question is the one that isn't/wasn't asked.  

Guess mom was wrong.  

She was ![/color]

Pat, you horses *%#$, why must you fail to realize that your "east coast frankness" deters some people on this website from asking questions, for fear that they might get a eruption from Mt. Mucci, let alone get embarrassed in public.
Since when do you speak for others on this site ?
Is it a self appointed mantle, or was there an election I missed ?

As far as being embarrassed, you have only yourself to blame.
You posted photos and represented them as indicative of the site under discussion, a disengenuous, egregious and unethical tactic meant to mislead the site and discredit Rees
Jones's work.

That I caught you with your phony representation is something you haven't gotten over, and neither have others.
I'd rather be disliked for my "east coast frankness" then be deemed one who is less than candid with his postings on GCA.com.[/color]

If you cannot concede that it is possible you have a penchant for being abrasive with your grammer, I do not envision a scenario in which we see eye to eye.

I just do not see the "value" in your methods.  It is probably the laid-back Oregonian in me!

You're so stupid that you fail to understand the contradiction in the very words you type..... only one paragraph apart.  
You say that I have a penchant for being abrasive with my grammar, and that you're a layed back Oregonian, yet you resorted to calling me a horsesass in the preceeding paragraph, and name called Hamilton Hearst in a previous post.
A practice that you engage in time after time.
You're the moron, you're the one who continually personalizes attacks on others.  Look in the mirror pal, just move the tail to the side and you'll get a great view of what a real horses ass looks like.[/color]

I'm done here.....I am sorry to all.  I will bury my head back in the sand and stew from the privacy of my own yurt.
In other words you've finally discovered the wisdom of minding your own business.  At least you're showing some signs of a learning curve.[/color]

((It will give me a chance to figure out how I can gain access to you and Hamilton Hearst's beloved Garden City ))
GCGC was well regarded before Hamilton Hearst and I spoke well of the golf course.  I believe Ran's write up provides sufficient praise, absent our views.

Rather than trying to figure out how to gain access to GCGC, try figuring out where the Oregon Dunes are in relation to Sandpines.  Hint: One's coastal, the other's inland and more than a few miles away.  [/color]