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Paul Richards

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Reflection Bay
« on: September 20, 2004, 11:13:57 AM »
Will be visiting Las Vegas next week and seeing Reflection Bay for the first time.

I understand there is a new course at this resort - any thoughts? - i've played South Shore already.  

Anything else that's a 'must-see' in their immediate vicinity?

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2004, 11:19:29 AM »
Cascata.   One of the great examples of "emperor's new clothes" architecture.  Gets two groups a day and has a waterfall running through the pro shop, so everybody loves it!
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2004, 11:20:11 AM »
alex

thanks.  been there.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 11:26:02 AM »
What did you think? I was overhelmingly underwhelmed. Pretty, but without anything distinctive whatsoever, other than the silence.
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Paul Richards

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Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2004, 11:28:30 AM »
that's a pretty accurate assessment, imho.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Scratch_Nathan

Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 01:02:14 PM »
Paul -

I'm not a huge Nicklaus fan but I really enjoyed Reflection Bay. Many interesting and memorable holes.  All the fairways are not perfectly sterile (see Muirfield Village).  A lot of fun shots to play and as strategically sound as any Nicklaus course I've seen.

The Falls course is the other course at the resort but I definitely don't recommend it.  It's contrived and amusement parkish.  The par-4 green-in-a-box canyon hole (14?) in all the photos is one of the worst holes I've ever played.  Definitely don't miss breakfast or lunch at the Falls Course winery-like clubhouse.  A great spot and really good grub too.
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Paul Richards

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Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 01:05:01 PM »
scratch

that's exactly what i needed to know.  thank you.

your description of the box-canyon reminds me of that awful course, TPC Canyons.  :-[ :P
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 01:11:47 PM »
Scratch,

What about the rest of The Falls? It appears that the holes on the other side of the road from the clubhouse are fit into some pretty difficult property. You probably have some forced holes there. On the clubhouse side thought, it appeared to be some good strategic options.

The day I was there the wind was howling. Does the course become too dificult in these conditions?

Anyone want to comment how it compares to Wolf Creek in Mesquite?

As for Cascata, I've got a bunch of pictures and some notes that I hope to get around to posting in the near future. The short story is a pretty neat experience, they do understand customer servivce, though you do pay for it! The golf however, other than a hole or two was very unmemorable.
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 01:21:17 PM »
john

agreed re: your Cascata comments
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Scratch_Nathan

Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2004, 02:00:00 PM »
Paul -

Glad I could help.  Funny that you'd mention TPC at C.  TPC at the Canyons would be #1 or #2 on my "Worst Bang for the Buck" list, if I had one.  Few redeeming qualities.   The Falls is slightly better but that's not saying much.  Don't miss beers and lunch at the see-through (you'll know what I mean when you see it) clubhouse after a round at Reflection Bay.

John -

The first few holes on Falls (on the inhospitable terrain you wrote of) have the appearance of being finished yesterday.  Surrounding areas are bleak, rocky and dump-like (no bad smell) and they run along the road that accesses the resort. These are not good things when spending $50 per round...let alone $175+!  I think there is one hole on the front I liked (#7?).  A left-moving par five with a diagonal dry wash separating the fairway from the green complex.  It was a pretty interesting hole but a little one-dimensional in that you need to hit a VERY straight drive to a semi-blind landing area or re-load.  Considering the quality of Reflection Bay, The Falls has a hard time standing up.  It was very windy when I was there too.
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2004, 02:07:01 PM »
scratch

tpc canyons is a prime example of what's wrong with (most of) Las Vegas golf - put any c$#p out ther and people will pay $175 to play it! :-[ :P :-[
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2004, 02:55:55 PM »
Don't know about the others, but The Wolf @ the Pauite Resort was top notch. All of the strategy, a great routing, interesting green sites, a few cross hazards and playable in the wind for the high handicapper. Would definetly recomend as choice #1 in the area.

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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2004, 03:38:20 PM »
john

how far is the wolf from reflection bay then?

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2004, 03:54:41 PM »
Paul, Very far. The Pauite resort is about 30 min North of the strip and reflection bay is about 45 min south of the strip/ W/out a Helicopter, I think you've got to do them on two differnet days.

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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2004, 04:07:46 PM »
john

so anything else you'd recommend near reflection bay or at least along the way from the strip to reflection?

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2004, 04:35:45 PM »
Paul,

There is a new course Tuscany on the way to Lake Las Vegas, but it a Ted Robinson course and I know nothing about it. It's definetly the closest. There are a few closer to the strip in the Dragon Ridge, Rio Secco, Boulder Creek that may suffice.
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Bruce Katona

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Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2004, 05:25:50 PM »
I have had the opportunity to play both courses at the Pauite Reservation and thought both were worth the expense.  That from a guy who rarely is out of pocket for greens fees.
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Matt_Ward

Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2004, 12:40:04 PM »
Paul:

The Falls at Reflection Bay is simply low level stuff that fails to really use the existing landscape to its maximum potential.

Truth be told -- the opening sequence of holes is likely the best part of the course. Weiskopf has included a pedestrian drop shot par-3 -- the 8th hole and then you have to double back to get to the 9th tee. Very interesting traffic situation for those coming off the 8th green and then being halfway up into the 9th fairway as the group in front of you is aiming in that same direction.

The back nine takes on the severe hilly terrain for the remainder of the nine holes. Not all of is bad but for the uninitiated player the liklihood of creep and crawl pace of play is likely.

The course also includes a very ordinary driveable par-4 -- I believw it's the 16th. In many ways the best hole I really liked on the inner half was the par-5 12th. It's blind for the second shot and the green is really well situated. The view of the desert floor from that spot is also quite awesome.

The Falls is without question a clear step or two below what Weiskopf has done from the layouts of his I've played. Spend your time either at the private Nicklaus layout (South Shore) or the public one (Reflection Bay).

It will be interesting to see how the upcoming new Tom Fazio course will contrast to what is already there.
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2004, 02:42:34 PM »
Quote from: Bruce Katona on September 20, 2004, 05:25:50 PM
I have had the opportunity to play both courses at the Pauite Reservation

There are 3 courses at Paiute: Sun Mountain, Snow Mountain, and Wolf.  Wolf is supposedly the best of the 3 and opened in 2001.

http://www.lvpaiutegolf.com
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2004, 02:53:55 PM »
matt

excellent analysis and i appreciate your candor.  ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

jg7236

Re:Reflection Bay
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2004, 03:09:50 PM »
I would steer clear of the new course at Reflection Bay.  You will hit a shot right down the middle and get down to the fairway and realize your ball rolled into the desert.  On a lot of holes the fairways slope towards the desert.  The course is always in great shape, but not one of my favorites at Reflection Bay.  Tuscany isn't anything special, all I would say is it is a new golf course, it is green.  In regards to Cascata, the course gets a lot more play then it used to since they lowered the green fees to a bargain rate at around $250.  The course is always in great shape, and everybody that plays gets treated like Kings and Queens.  If I had a choice of play in Vegas I would play Southern Highlands, Rio Secco, Canyon Gate Country Club, Red Rock Country Club, Shadow Creek if you haven't already played, Spanish Trail, Bears Best, Badlands, TPC, etc.  Paul if you need any help with golf in Las Vegas, let me know.

Good Luck,

John
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