[cary lichtenstein]

My wife and I are going thru Colorado, playing alot of mountain courses on a trip that we were supposed to do last summer before she was attached and bitten by a neighbor's dog. She got fitted for a heavy duty brace in Vail from Dr. Stegman and we are in the middle of our trip.

We had the opportunity to play Sanctuary this week, which is the second Engh course we have played, with Black Rock being the first.

I can unequaifically, this guy is no one horse pony.

For those of you who have not played Sanctuary, Engh presents a visually stunning course, hole after hole. Some of the holes look like the pictures you see from a fantasy golf calendar, but they are immenitely playable.

It's like being on a roller coaster ride, what's next?

#1 starts with a tee shot 200 feet up to a fairway that winds around like a snake, yet he creates landing areas that are receptive to and act like launching pads if you hit the ball correctly.

There is tremendous variety thru out the course, short par 4's that require drivers off the tees, and then delicates wedges into greens that are multiple teered.

Once on the greens, putting becomes a whole new game with 7 pin placements per hole, many holes having 3+ greens within greens.

For all you minialistists out there, and I respect the great minialist architects, Engh is able to give us courses that in my humble opinion are great (no, they are not walkable, and those of you who demand walking, should not play his courses), but those of you who can appreciate his artistic hand, should go out of your way to play Sanctuary and Black Rock.

The great architects of the golden era, could not do by hand what can be done today with the bulldoser, and in my opinion, some of the revered old courses, don't hold their own with some of todays.

[Lou_Duran]

It is clear from playing Sanctuary that Jim Engh and his folks are very highly skilled.  I understand that Jim is also an excellent player.

Sanctuary is an astounding course and a major design and construction achievement.  It is mountain golf deluxe on four wheels.

The site is so severe that, reportedly, other architects either passed on the job or opined that it was unbuiladable.  Jim did a wonderful job of creating a course that is playable if counting strokes and losing balls are not important, postcard beautiful, and certainly unique.

Sanctuary owes its existance to its rare owners and an unusual operating format.  There are only two members- the founder of Remax real estate and his wife, and the course is used primarily for charity events.  I am not privy to the cost of the course or the P & Ls, but I suspect that the ROI is considerably negative before taxes.

BTW, Jim Engh and his associates are designing a course in the Lake Ocone area near Cuscowilla (where 75% of the residential lots have been sold).  With this and the new Doak course to be built, this area an hour east of Atlanta has become a real hot bed of great golf.

   

[John_Conley]

Lou:

Jim is a very strong ballstriker.  He was given an exemption to Liniger's Re/Max Long Drive finals one year and it isn't like he's out of place.  

With altitude and the elevated tees, it isn't unlikely that some of his carries approach 400 yards.  With wind, oh my... it would be unbelievable.

I drove it particularly badly the day we played and I can assure you, Sanctuary is no place for a bad driver!!!

If he played, Jim could probably be a golfer competitive on the statewide amateur scene.  As it is, he's probably a 2 handicap that can occasionally shoot in the 60s.

(I may have sold him short if he's playing more frequently.  I'm sure he'd be a 0 or +1 if he were playing three times weekly.)

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Beg to differ with you.

While I also enjoy playing Jim Engh courses I have to say Sanctuary gets plenty of eye-candy points for its gorgeous views of the front range and Pike's Peak.

The layout is as John accurately says on severe hilly terrain and as a result you get a wide distortion of shots when playing there. Hitting long tee shots is aided not only by the elevation but by the ground running abruptly away from the tee causing shots to go even further. I mean how long is the hang time on the first two par-5's you play? The 1st tee at Sanctuary can give you vertigo and makes the first at Castle Pines look flat!

I found the greens and bunkering work to be standard Engh stuff -- not bad but not exceptional. Frankly, his work at Redlands Mesa is likely a better overall course because the shot distortion element I initially alluded to is not present to that high of a degree. The land at Redlands Mesa works in concert with the golf -- and is not the primary story as it is at Sanctuary.

Sanctuary also benefits from the "exclusive" nature of who actually plays there since the ownership keeps a tight lid on outside play.

Much of the course involves a steady diet in riding the cart to avoid the obligatory and often hated uphill holes. One of the best holes I enjoyed at Sanctuary is the ending par-4 18th. It's one of the very few that goes uphill directly and it's quite a challenge to conclude the round with.

While I don't doubt Jim Engh deserves immense credit in taking on such a demanding site you have to weigh that fact against what ultimately is done. Sanctuary provides plenty of fun in a number of spots but I personally find that severe sites can be just as flawed for what they are no less than dead flat sites (e.g. Florida). The land takes on too great a role and the issue of quality and consistent shot values is likely diminished because of the distortion the land provides. Sanctuary cuts an impressive picture -- I don't see the golf there in the same light as the on-course and off-course views.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

Your best move was getting in to see Dr Stegman, everything else is just the icing on the cake.

[Doug Wright]

I played The Sanctuary this summer for the second time and had some different reactions from the first time, when I was overwhelmed by the views and underwhelmed by the golf course, in part due to what was a skewed anticipation of something better based on what I'd heard and read.

There's no question Jim Engh is the master of taking a difficult (or in the case of The Sanctuary, well nigh impossible) site and turning it into a unique venue for golf. I think that demonstrates real talent and ingenuity. He certainly created  a golf course where the wow view factor is every bit as important as the "shot values" (whatever that means, haven't read the thread on that yet). I'm sure that's what the owner wanted, and I'm also sure there's no way in hell anyone could help it or want to on the severe property this course lays on. Matt Ward, how could you not design to severely downhill holes when the property is a mountainside? (Matt, how many times have you played this course?)


Having said that, I agree with Matt that the better holes on the course are the uphill ones-- the 18th and the 8th, as well as the flatter ones like the 11th. There are a few that seem designed just to get from point A to point B, like the par 3 6th and the  par 4 9th, but I'm not surprised by that with this property's limitations.


And Cary, I hope you didn't write the check to Dr. Stegman--it's Dr. Richard Steadman, orthopedist to the stars (and one person Kobe Bryant wishes he'd never gone to see)....

Best,

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

I played the course twice -- no more or less than you.

Frankly, Jim Engh's hand on putting forward artsy-looking type holes is certainly present at Sanctuary. Sometimes I wonder if a less-is-more approach would have worked better there.

What I mean about this is that sometimes when you have a unique site you really don't need all the puffery -- think of the par-3 on the back side with the water and all the other gyrations (I believe it's the 13th hole?).

Doug -- when courses focus or highlight the scenery at the expense of the "shot values" you get what a Texan would say is "all hat and no cattle." Sanctuary is an eye-ful but the drp shot type holes become rather overdone as you play one after the next after the next.

If you notice Sanctuary made a big splash when it first came out -- as the dust settles and mroe focus centers around the course and the individual holes you will see the enthusiasm for the course wane. It's still worthy of a play and I liked it -- I just don't think it merits all the fanfare and acclaim for the reasons I already stated.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I don't think this course should appear in the rankings/ratings at all because of the extreme limited access. It's a private club with 1or 2 members and limited play. Is Annenberg's course in Palm springs rated?

Steve

[cary lichtenstein]

Please allow me to make my point from a different point of view.

Sanctuary represents an artistic acheivement that heretofore no one else has been able to pull off.

Sancturary represents taking a mountain site and not only making it very playable, but a thrilling adventure.

Why does that not put Engh into the top eschelon of architects today? Who else has done something like this?

Every tee shot is a challenge beyond the norm. Why isn't that perceived as very, very special?

Matt you make very good points but so what about the distortion, doesn't that make it even a greater challenge?

Name me one of the great dead architects that took a mountain site and was able to achieve this? If McKenzie did this, it would have set the standard. Who says that this doesn't set the bar for the future.

These are not meant to be argumentative questions, but observations.

Many on this site revere Doak and Coore and Crenshaw, why aren't Engh's achievements viewed just as good.

[JakaB]

quassimoto....you are a breath of fresh air....I don't get one thing....does the dog bite still got your wife down or is this a fresh injury..

[cary lichtenstein]

John:

The dog bite not only resulted in disfiguring her tuch, but she torn her menisus in her knee as she turned to get away from the dog. She now has a big black knee brace that helps stabilize the knee.

[John_Conley]

Cary:

Doak and Crenshaw/Coore are known for a minimalist approach.  Engh's work at Sanctuary is very busy.  The two styles contrast.

Jim Engh is considered among the top echelon by some of us.  He's won a load of "Best New" awards from GD.

One of the things I liked about Sanctuary, the only Engh design I've played, is that there is a lot going on with each hole.  I'd compare it to amplified rock.  The guys you mentioned are trying to build Modern Classics and sound more like Adult Contemporary.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Hold the fort partner.

I never said Jim Engh isn't a talented designer or that a few of his courses are rather special. I have had the opportunity to play a few of them from Fossil Trace to Redlands Mesa to Sanctuary to Hawktree.

The Engh "style" often features serpentine looking bunkers that wind their way in and around putting surfaces. I believe the work he did at Fossil Trace is quite special because the site -- particularly the back nine -- is quite small on total acreage and he fitted all the elements without compromising any of the holes.

John Conley accurately expressed the split between a Engh layout and one by Doak / C&C and Hanse, to name just three.

Cary, there are some people here on GCA who quite obviously have a clear and undying admiration for what the three people I just mentioned do with golf course design. Some of these same people would likely find the work of Jim Engh to be as John accurately describes as being too "busy."

Unfortunately, there are times when too "busy" means that Jim's hands are clearly working in overdrive to achieve some sort of desired "outcome." In some cases that works well -- especially when the land isn't that great -- but at other times it can be overwhelming.

In the case of Sanctuary it's clear the site is most demanding because of the savage nature of how much slope exists. I don't mind dropshot type holes but on severe land there is likelihood in having way too many for my tastes. These holes often mean a short distortion that mandates making radical club decisions on a number of the tees. You also get a flase sense of how far you are hitting the ball from all the "turbo" boosts that are present.

You ask a good question concerning hilly sites. I would suggest you play the Cascades -- the William Flynn design. It's one of the best mountain type courses that is also walkable.

The issue with hilly sites is that whenever you go downhill aburptly you must find some way to get back uphill. It causes plenty of issues and with Sanctuary you get some silly holes like the forced uphill dog-leg left 9th, to name just one example.

Sanctuary cuts an impressive picture and for those playing there that may be the crucial ingredient in determining if they really like the ocurse. If you go deeper and review the individual holes you see what inevitably almost always happens with hilly and mountainous sites -- the shot distortion becomes so great as to leave the course only holding on to one aspect -- a great view of the Front Range.

Cary -- Sanctuary hit the scene impressively but the depth and character of the course is simply not at the level that will keep it near the top. That's happening now and will likely continue.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt or anyone else

Can someone please answer my question as to why this course is even rated or ranked by major publications or even talked about here for that matter? As far as I can gather, this course was built for the founders of the REMAX empire. It's their course. There are no other members. It's not a resort course. It's not a public course. The owners sponsor some charity events there. And some GCAer's who are raters gain access. Why indulge the owners of this course? I felt the same way about Shadow Creek until it was opened for resort play.

Steve

[JakaB]

Steve,

It is easier to gain access to Sanctuary than ANGC or Seminole....where is your line on number of members 1, 10, 170 or 700...I don't get your point.......In my personal next 50...which I don't publish, unlike Ran....I include many hard nuts to crack...and until I get a chance to get to these locations I appreciate the opinions of raters like Ward and Quassi who take the time to do the leg work and report back.

What would be your standard.....would any privates be worthy of rating....or just these so called semi-privates that dot the landscape that are simply just publics in lambs clothing..

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

John is quite correct -- the issue of access really doesn't play to the max at Sanctuary as it does with other courses in the USA.

My botton line -- if the place has 18 holes it's a golf course and if I hear enough on the grapevine I'm game to play it when time permits. I am not indulging anything but the fact that golf exists there.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt and John

I can see your point but can I, as a non GD or GW rater gain access here without playing in a charity event? Do the owners open this course for a USGA Open qualifier or event? Or A CO GA event? It's their private playground otherwise. By allowing this course to be rated/ranked and talked about then  the owners get their thrills as the golf community and press give them recognition for their private playground. I don't think Walter Annenberg or any of the old time magnates who built private courses did what these owners are doing. They didn't care.

As far as the other private clubs like AN, Seminole, etc....who knows, maybe someday I'll come across a member and get an invitation. At least at those places there is more than 1 member.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Life & golf, alas, is not fair.

When I hit the lottery and create my own "Sanctuary" you can be sure you will be on the permanent guess list.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

When you win the lottery, who will be the architect of your "Sanctuary?"  

Steve

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

Thanks for the concept. I visited www.santuarygolfcourse.com  and discovered that the owners encourage and accept many charitable golf outings and do not use the course exclusively as their private playground a la many of the old time magnates who built their own courses. There were 21 charitable events listed this summer.Accordingly, my position re ranking/rating or even talking about this course has changed. Next summer in Denver may be doable.

Steve

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