[Tony_Chapman]

Gents - Being a resident, I constantly have thoughts about these new projects going by Hanse, Shack and Nicklaus in the Sandhills. I am wondering about the "championship" nature of the projects.

I think I read the Hanse project is par-72, just over 7,000 yards and I heard preliminary reports on the Nicklaus course had it a 7,600 yards.

My question is this. Would these courses get laughed at if lets say one of the were a par-69, or one came out like 6,300 yards? If that's what the land dictated, would they get looked down upon?

Its obvious with the success of SH and WildHorse, that these courses will be "targets" when they open. I am wondering if its possible that people would be turned off, if they saw the vitals of the course and it listed one of the above mentioned yardage or par facts.

Thanks, in advance.

[THuckaby2]

Tony:

There certainly is a segment of the golf population for whom a course must be 7000 yards and par 72 or it isn't a golf course PERIOD.  Those people would obviously not take to a 6300 yard par 69.

BUT... to anyone with half a brain, the lure of these courses in the wilds of Nebraska certainly isn't for a "championship test."  Neither Sand Hills nor Wild Horse are easy courses, but their difficulty is not what makes one endure the long travel time to play them... It's really everything beyond that!

So if a piece of land dictated 6300 yards and par 69, well... that land boggles the imagination as to what might be, so I'm assuming it is among the dunes and hills and blowouts like Sand Hills... and if it's like that, and the strategic choices are endless, along with all this beauty - as is the case at Sand Hills - then in the end this course might achieve a certain cachet of its own, simply FOR following the land and taking what's there... It would be the Rye of its area...

Some might still denigrate it, but then there are fools who denigrate Rye.  Not many continue to do so after playing that course, though.  Methinks this would be the case with this "short" Nebraska gem.

TH

[John_Conley]

6300 par 69 is actually rather testy for an average golfer.  Depending on how it breaks out, that equates to a course of about 7000 with a traditional par.

My experience is that people are far more tolerant of that if they are told in advance it is a great golf course.  Not everyone can figure it out on their own.

[RJ_Daley]

I'm going to take a guess about why a course like Pac Dunes has multiple par 3s in a row and odd balanced pars on the two 9 hole loops, and thus the rationale is used that Doak used the best land available rather than tried to force traditional routing and par considerations into the overall plan.  In addition to finding the best hole opportunities and let the land dictate the sequencing, I think that the amount of land available to him to create his canvas was perhaps limitted to 220-300 acres.  Of course Tom would have to chime in here to tell us that.

But when it comes to working a routing through these vast Sand Hill land tracks where Dismal River states they have 2500 acres, and Valentine has also a vast amount of acreage, then I don't think that the architect needs to feel constrained to shoe-horn in a particularly odd sequencing or short yardage course.  While there are certain corridors of holes that scream at you that playing across that particular ground and into a particular green site would be a stunning hole, the architect can then route holes before and after the stunner, that are themselves across vastly superior golf ground.  And, the routing on such a wide open vast canvass need not be constrained to a more geometric shape such as a long narrow tract, or a stubby or serpentine tract.  

That is the amazing characteristic of the sand hills land at it's best.  One can stand on any one spot, and often find a corridor for a par 3, 4, or 5 in just about all directions, and if anything it is the architect's challenge to route a sequence that has pace and drama and where the routing itself is a journey to be remembered.

[Dan_Callahan]

Wintonbury Hills in Connecticut is just over 6,600 yards with a par of 70. It continues to receive accolades as one of the best new public courses in the country.

[mark chalfant]

   Tony,

Gil and Geoffs  project may end up with 36 holes.

Its  my understanding that the second  course might
measure in the  6,400-6,500  range.   In addition this
course might  include  some  short par fours  that
are  carefully  crafted  out of  the interesting terrain that
exists  at this  splendid   site.

[RJ_Daley]

Mark, again because it is the sand hills and the terrain is typically rolling and totally interesting in every direction; Gil can darn near do anything his imagination can come up with.  Hell, they can do 18 par 4s varying from 250-510 yards with specific consideration to prevailing winds and have a vastly differing plaing course on any given day.  They could do a "no-par" deal like Coore and Crenshaw originally thought to do at Notre Dame.  They could do a MacGregor clan course like David Feherty once comically wrote about in his column series where by the course was one hole, par 72, 8000 yards!  

Hell, you want to talk about letting your imagination run wild in the sand hills, try this one.  You play the first hole, then at the second tee, you have a trap shooting station where you use your 12guage that you carry in your golf bag like your 15th club.  You get three clay pigeons to shoot at, and you add each miss to your golf-trap score. Repeat this on every tee.

Here, you can try the trap portion:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/skeet.htm

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tony,
It's a good point you bring up and something we just dealt with after several days walking around. But the acreage we had to work with is so generous, it just happens that the best 18-holes came out to the 72/7000 figure. But within that, there will be plenty of variety and quirk, and extra tees so that we hopefully get "multiple courses within the course" (I'm going to keep blabbering away on behalf of Captain Thomas's concept because I really think he was onto something neat, especially at a course that will likely be played twice a day).

We have four short par-4's, three of which sit in a six-hole stretch. And two very long par-5s and two very shortish 5's. It's just the way it worked out. We also have two seventeenth holes, and one is a short-4 that's pretty different! Dick liked it though, so blame his enthusiasm for it making the final plan!

The second course hasn't been routed yet because the land is more complex and deserves months of analysis that we hope to give it while constructing the first course. The terrain is "choppier" and really different from the first course where the canyon rim played a huge role in placing holes and dictating certain yardages. As Mark pointed out, the second course will probably end up being shorter and quirkier, but we won't really know until it's routed. As Dick said, you can stand on points and look in all directions and see nothing but potential holes. It's both fun and at times overwhelming because you want to do the land justice.
Geoff

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rod Whitman and I were invited to Dr. Trimble's land to interview for the project, so I can support Geoff's statements about the potential for the Valentine property. It has tremendous potential.

As Geoff points out above, the diversity between the landscape near the canyon rim and the sand hills closer to the highway is remarkable. Dr. Trimble's property has the makings for two very, very distinct courses at the same club.  

Rod and I walked the land for two days and our heads were spinning. We were joking about where we would possibly start if given the opportunity. Opportunities are endless. Interesting though, like Gil, Jim, and Geoff, we figured the first course should employ the section of the property near the canyon rim.

I think when people hear about this project, they'll immediately think a course similar to Sand Hills will be created. Not true. By utilizing the canyon rim, Valentine will in fact be very much different than its famous neighbour, down the road. Trust me.  

[Tony_Chapman]

Geoff, Jeff and all - Thanks for the comments.

I was certainly thinking you guys would have plenty of ground and the holes would kind of fall into place. I can't imagine the challenge that was presented in trying to get the holes to tie together, make the course walkable, etc. with that big canvas that is being presented to you.

[Tom_Doak]

Dick Daley:

We had plenty of property to work with at Pacific Dunes -- probably another 100 acres of flatter stuff to the left of the fifteenth hole.  We simply decided that it would be a better course at 6,700 yards with every hole on gorgeous terrain, instead of 7,000 yards with two or three holes which felt like they were "out of the dunes."

It helped that Bandon Dunes already existed and was 7,300 yards long, so that championships [if there ever are any] could be played there.  For resort play, though, hardly anyone ever plays the back tees at Bandon.

As for Nebraska [or Holyoke], all the courses you're talking about are at elevations between 3,000 and 4,000 feet, so that a 7,000 yard course plays significantly shorter than 7,000 yards at sea level:  in fact, it's more like 6,500 yards than like 7,000.

[A_Clay_Man]

As tornados whip down east of the rockies today, how much of that "reality" is being designed into, not only Holyoke, but these other vulnerable spots? It's likely all those tornados which brought the sand to the region.

Does anyone have the balls to actually build into the land? Rather than on top of it?

[Tom_Doak]

Adam,

I don't really understand the difference between building "into" or "on top of" the land.  You'll need to clarify.

For myself, I'm trying to lay out as many holes as possible where I'll have to move no dirt at all.  Ballyneal doesn't have as many holes like that as Sand Hills did, because the dunes are sharper and steeper; on some we will have to create green sites, and on others we will have to knock down a ridge in the fairway to enhance visibility.  [I'm okay with a blind shot now and again, but I don't know anyone who is a big fan of "open" blind shots where you're playing over the top of a broad contour in the fairway which hides the view of the green and its surrounds.]

Is that "on top" or "into"?

[John Foley]

Tom & Adam,

Is the question summer weather conditions in the plains east of the front range?

From my few trips thru the Denver area the afternoon thunderstorms which roll off the front range would make afternoon playing time problematic. If you watch the International they have delays many many times due to weather. Since the mountains north in Wyoming are not as dramatic, I think Sand Hills location is not as susceptible to this.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- I was not referring to the GCA, but more to the surrounding architecture and infrastructure.

Wild Horse is a perfect example where the typical pitched roof housing, has no business being part of the landscape's  visual.

 It seems to me, there's a dichotomy between the emphasis on avoiding the worst case scenarios, and the actual construction (and design) of structures. Especially since the probabilities are high for tornado damage, in that specific region.

 Digging into the land, creating an almost cave-like design, will reduce insurance requirement burdens, heating and cooling costs, and will likely not react adversly to the eye, when seen from any distance. Literally Building into the land.

I can almost recall an amazing house, built in the San Jaocquin(sp?) Valley(I think) that incorporated amazing ways of dealing with the light issues, and airs movement. While none of it was mechanical. I saw it on an old old episode of 'California's gold' a PBS prodction highlighting many of Ca.'s interesting places.

I hope to be out that direction in early August, and would like the chance to meet you, the crew, and Dave too.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam,

Apparently you missed the thread which stated that construction at Ballyneal has been postponed until next spring.    Fortunately, though, we still have three courses to build this year, in New York, Palm Desert, and Washington state.

I've only seen one in-the-ground clubhouse, at Old Head.  It kind of gave me the creeps, really, but I guess the concept of not seeing it as you come onto the peninsula is important there.  They had to do a lot of berming to hide the cars.

[Tom Soileau]

Tom Doak,

I work for Jack on one of our courses under construction in Indian Wells.  I just heard about the pre-bid for your course here in Palm Desert.  I had heard nothing about you building a course here in the desert until the day of the pre-bid.  Was it "hush-hush" or did I just miss it.  I know where the site is and that it is extremely rocky.  I also heard that you plan to move 450,000 cu. yards of dirt, I mean rock  What are you going to create there.  Should be interesting.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- Yes, I did miss the news.   I'm still searching for that house in Fresno(?) But I did find this;

rammed earth, material consisting chiefly of soil of sufficiently stiff consistency that has been placed in forms and pounded down. It has been used for buildings and walls since ancient times and was employed in some of the most ancient fortifications in the Middle East. Pliny the Elder records the survival of a rammed-earth fort built by Hannibal 250 years earlier. The material has been recommended especially for subsistence homesteads and for farm buildings; it has been widely used in the Rhone valley. It is known in England by the French term pisé de terre. It is formed either into monolithic walls or into blocks, and in both forms it makes strong, durable walls with good insulating and fireproofing properties. Its resistance to water may be increased by stabilizing it with cement and by surfacing. Earth walls should rest on a foundation with a waterproof top and must be roofed immediately. The material usually costs nothing and does not require skilled labor. Adobe, unlike rammed earth, is sun-dried and is made without packing the earth down between forms. Cob and chalk mud are related building systems. The cob mixture consists of straw added to clay and water. It has been used in Japanese architecture and until recently was an important building material in some regions of Great Britain, particularly in Devonshire and South Wales. In the chalk-mud method, chalk is added to the earth and water. Sir Edwin Lutyens designed a monumental chalk building, Marsh Court in Hampshire, England.

See R. L. Patty and L. M. Minium, Rammed Earth Walls for Farm Buildings (1938); C. Williams-Ellis and J. and E. Eastwick-Field, Building in Cob, Pisé, and Stabilized Earth (1947).

[Chris Perry]

Tom.

Do you have any info to give on the Washington project, or is there any info online anywhere yet?

Stuff like location, type of course etc.?

Thanks.

[Tony_Chapman]

Gentlemen - Some of you may have seen the photos before and I think some of them may have been posted on here, but Geoff, now has some good pics of the Valentine project on his site. Below is a link:

www.geoffshackelford.com/page16.html

[Tony_Chapman]

Shivas - From what I have seen (via pics only) and heard, some of the most stunning pieces of the property are located along the trees and the beautiful Snake River. I think you would really have to see it to appreciate it. To not take the golfer to that part of the property would be a crime in my opinion.

I don't think the dunes will be near what you see at SH. Again, that place is special. The Dismal River project may have more powerful dunes than this. I suspect this land to be a bit more like Wild Horse. Maybe Dick Daley could chime in here.

I also think Geoff stated the second course will be located primarily in the dunes portion of the property.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Gentlemen,

I spent two days on the property at Valentine. The land is nothing like Sand Hills or Wild Horse. The natural contours of  are far less dramatic, but just as good for golf.  

I think Gil, Jim W., and Geoff have made the correct decision re: utlizing the canyon rim with the first course.

As I've said before, this scheme will differentiate the Valentine course from both Sand Hills and Wild Horse, as well as the Dismal River project I presume.

[Tony_Chapman]

Jeff - Thanks for the clarification. I have confidence this place will be a great place for golf!

[Tony_Chapman]

I am sure you all want this thread put to bed, sorry.

But one more thing:

www.dismalriverclub.com

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff's assessment is absolutely correct in my view.  The whole point is to have something distinctive from Sand Hills GC while taking advantage of this property's unique qualities.  One of the most dominant qualities of this property is the Snake River Canyon and the stand of predominantly pine that grows within 200 yards on either side of the pristine river floor.  I think Geoff used some of my pictures in the slide show and they were sent to him in reduced memory quality and then reproduced on the link, they are grainy and don't demonstrate the actual rolls of the land very well.  Remember that each picture is about 20% of the 360* view and that the prairie opens behind the camera.  One of the most representative pictures I have seen of this specific land where the course is to be built was actually featured in a National Geographic fold out and clearly captures the essence of this property.  Perhaps Geoff can get a link to it or get permission to reprint it.  That picture will leave no doubt in your mind Dave as to whether this property is somehow inferior to the Sand Hills vistas.  

However, you are correct that the playing of 9 holes more or less along and flirting up to and across chasms of the canyon is different from anything else out there.  And, long range planning is considering a second all prairie course that might be public access.  I did comment to Geoff and Gill that in my opinion, of the routing I saw, while the sizzle and what most people would be most attracted to was the dramatic inward 9 along the canyon, the prairie 9 might be the type of holes I most admire in the whole prairie-sand hills environment.

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