[Patrick_Mucci]

Would a centerline bunker configuration enhance the strategy and drama at the 15th hole at ANGC ?

[JSlonis]

Pat,

At what yardage would this bunker configuration be located?

[Michael Dugger]

Isn't it pretty difficult for a player to screw up his drive so severley that they cannot go for the green in two?  

Is the bunker proliferation in question designed to increase the difficulty of the drive?

[Rick Shefchik]

If a centerline bunker configuration were added, you'd have to take out the tree on the left side that blocks the green to drives that drift too far left.

Not a bad trade-off.

[john_stiles]

No... I like the strategy as-is and wouldn't add centerline bunker(s) at any yardage.

There are still the occasional issues of the tee ball hanging on the side of the hill or landing in the creek on the left. I like the problem of a  'hanging lie' for second shot over the greenside creek.    

Maybe you could tweak the earthform so that the slope creates more hanging lies versus the ball tumbling so far down to a better lie....or maybe move the tee back further (or the landing area out) so the drives land more into the upslope of the hillside.

The present landing area seems to create a bank you bounce off, giving even more latitude to wayward shots, except when they hang up on the hillside.

I'm not sure that could be done but if anybody could do it.... well they could.....since cash can be ruled out as an issue.

So,  how about reshaping the entire hillside ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

How about planting a forest right, thus pinching off the fairway making the drive tough and if your anywhere left, you have that tree or trees to think of that are over there too, all which will erase any excitement that this once great hole tournament once produced all in an effort to protect par, as well as protect Tiger Woods from winning the rounament again.

Matter of fact now that I think of it, instead of the forest of Loblolly's, just situate a forest of blond Swedish nannies out there to help protect Mother Par.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

Approximately 280 to 320.

MDugger,

Not really, shots pulled a little left, or with a draw can get blocked by the fairway trees, and drives pushed a little right can now be blocked by trees, and/or caught in the rough.
I'm not sure that shots from the rough to the green will hold the green, unless they're short irons.

John Stiles,

Based on what I saw at the TPC, drives of 300 were fairly common, and that was without the benefit of helping terrain.
Guys were hitting 5-6 iron second shots into # 16, which I believe is fairly flat and played to 507 yards.

If the weather stays dry, it will be interesting to see what the PGA Tour Pros hit into that green, and if I remember correctly, there isn't much, if any room to lengthen the hole.

Rick Shefchik,

That's a really wide fairway, and it would play even more so without that stand of trees, and that might even be the prefered angle to come in from, and it might be the shorter side given the slope and assistance tee balls would receive, so if the trees came out, perhaps bunkers down the left side should go in.

If the weather is dry, and temperatures in the 70's or better, I think the hole will be a drive and medium to short iron for the entire field, unless the fairway conditions are altered by the hand of man.

This would completely undue that which was architecturally intended with respect to the play of the hole.
It would eliminate any decision/indecision and reduce the drama and pressure that was an integral component of the design.

[Matt_Ward]

Can someone explain to me what was soooooooo "wrong" with the way the old 15th was before they took out the mounds on the right side and added a number of trees?

The 15th used to be a major swing hole because the eagle / double-bogey possibility was certainly present. Now, the hole has been altered to be something entirely different and the "unpredictabilty" of the hole has been compromised just for the purposes of club ego relating to the fact that at times the longest hitters have hit a short iron to the green. Say it ain't so.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
A "good source" told me that a central bunker complex on 15 makes no sense.  

Why?  

Because everybody would go right because the left side of the bunker complex would not be an option since the left side of the fairway gets blocked out by the grove of trees farther down on the left.  Of course, you would have to get rid of all the newly planted trees on the right.  A central bunker complex, to be viable, has to offer a real dilemma as to which way to go and 15 wouldn't provide that option unless you eliminated the trees farther down on the left.
 
Now the concept is EXACTLY what they should have done on 11 instead of planting all of those trees down the right side which are RIDICULOUS!  

And there was precedent for this since Bobby Jones himself originally built a BLIND center bunker over the hill on number 11.  So with the tee moved way back, they could just put that bunker back in at the top of the hill and it would even be visible!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

You have to remember that the old mounds on # 15 weren't original, they were added later.

Tommy Naccarato,

I don't recall exactly, but a drive of 300 to 350 just might render those trees on the left obsolete, especially after watching Tiger and others go over the trees at TPC this past weekend.

It would be great if someone could post a schematic of the hole with yardages.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I liked the 15th hole -- with or without the mounds. For the life of me -- I don't what was soooooooo wrong with hole -- just check out how well the hole fared in a number of great championships -- most notably the '86 event when Seve went splash and Jack earned his 6th green coat courtesy of his play that day at #15.

I'm not a historian -- I leave that to folks like MacWood -- but were there ever plans by Mackenzie / Jones to add such a thing like a cross bunker to the hole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I believe that Seve hit a 4-iron that splashed, but it could have been a longer club.

I remember guys hitting 3-woods, 1-2- and 3 irons into that green.

I never remember anyone hitting a 9-iron or wedge into that green until recently.

Any drive that crests the hill with a slight draw benefits from the slope of the fairway and Sir Isaac Newton.

I don't believe the architectural principles that were fundamental to its design exist today.

I believe that Adam Scott hit a 5-iron, from a flat lie to a green level with his lie, from 207 yards, on # 18 at TPC.
If the shot had been downhill would he have hit a 6-7 iron ?

If he used a driver, would he have hit a wedge ?

I'm hoping for dry and warm weather in Augusta on April 8-11.

Added distance isn't the answer.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

You seem to forget that wind (the prevailing is into the player from the west on a number of occasions) when people were forced to hit much longer clubs into the green. On some occasions the wind has been so strong that the prudent play is to lay-up.

Let me also point out Jack Nicklaus hit as little as an 8-iron during the '65 event. When you take the clubs of that time and compare them to Tiger hitting a 9-iron or PW that's roughly the same in my book.

Let's also not forget that how many people -- even those hitting say a short iron actually eagled the hole when it was really needed.

It seems to me the folks at ANGC overreacted big time concerning the so-called deficiencies of the 15th hole. Taking out the mounds was one thing but adding the trees on the right was really a big time mistake IMHO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

What were the conditions when Nicklaus hit an 8 iron in 65,
and from what tee did he play ?

I believe that the tee has been moved back to its current positon from a shorter position.

I'm not so sure that wind is a BIG factor on the approach shot.
That green sits down, well below the surrounding trees, which shield the winds effect.

What club did Gene Sarazen hit into the hole for a double eagle ?

While Jones envisioned a reachable par 5, I don't think he thought that players would be throwing their ball onto the green from short range.

[JSlonis]

Personally, I would have left the hole alone years ago.  Maybe soften the mounds on the right, but I would have left the width and certainly not planted more trees.

The only way a centerline bunker complex works for me on a hole like that would be if there was room to challenge it on either side.  The original intent for that hole was to be a reachable, but risky par 5, and I'd hate to see that intent taken away.  I realize that a few players have hit short irons into that green under ideal conditions, but it is still a difficult shot.

Even though I like to see the players go for that green, I also like watching them sweat over a wedge shot when they're forced to layup.  That hanging lie approach shot to the green really makes the best players think.  It is about an uncomfortable a wedge shot that you'll see a tour player hit all year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

I should have been more feature specific.

I meant without the heavy rough and trees on the right.

While the mounds were put in in 1969 and lowered in 1998, a further reduction to avoid TEPaul's turbo boost, coupled with a centerline bunker configuration would have seemed a more interesting alteration, strategically, tactically and theatrically.

[JSlonis]

Pat,

That certainly could have been I viable option as long as the proper width was maintained.  

Given Jones' intent to have Augusta mirror some of the design principles and strategy of The Old Course, it wouldn't have been out of character to introduce a centerline bunker feature somewhere into the design of Augusta.

[David_Elvins]

Pat Mucci,

I am not sure why you would want centreline bunkers.  What gave you the idea?  What is the theory behind it?  It would seem to me that if the width was maintained, centreline bunkers would offer little strategy because everyone would play right of them to avoid being blocked out by the trees on the second shot.   It would seem to me that if there was going to be a fairway bunker anywhere, it would be on the right hand side of the fairway so the strategy would be to play as close to it as possible to get the best line into the green.  You have seen the site, would it be possible to incorporate a bunker with the "turbo boost" mounds so that any player wanting the extra distance from the mounds, risked landing in a bunker with a slight mis hit?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Elvins,

Ideas just circulate in my brain until a critical mass is achieved.  I then bounce the idea off of TEPaul.
If he says it's a good idea, I forget about it.
If he says it's a bad idea, I post it.

As I understand it, the turbo boost mounds are no longer in play for the PGA Tour player, they carry their drives past them, thus a right side bunker in the rough might catch few if any golf balls, and have little impact on the play of the hole.

The purpose of centerline bunkers at the 280-320 mark was to create a decision on the tee, where none exists currently.

# 15 fairway is wide and could accomodate a centerline feature.

I'm not so sure that the right side would be the default side.

[BCrosby]

The 15th at ANGC has - by a wide margin - the lowest scoring average against par on the course. At the Masters, it plays as a par 4. My feeling too is that the design of the hole ought to be revisited.

Currently drives left center or left have to deal with the protruding pines on that side. The fairway generally throws ball to the left, so the pines require you to aim down the right center. (Vijay's 4i around those pines to the green a couple of years ago was an idiotic shot choice that was brilliantly executed.)

The right side is the problem. Before the addition of the pines on the right in '99(?), the long players drove to the right rough or onto the 17th fairway. That area is higher than the 15th fairway and gives a better view down to the green. I saw Norman, Woods and Love routinely blow drives up there in the late 90's. Each would then hit PW or 9i's onto the green. (True!) I assume they didn't play for the turbo boost mounds because the kicks off them were so unpredictable. They didn't need the extra length anyway.

So with the addition of the trees, the play now is to the right side of the fairway. A narrower effective landing area, but it's obviously not scaring many people.

What to do?  

- You can't move the tee back. No room.

- You can't move the green. No room.

- You can increase the cant of the fairway from right to left. Make the tilt more severe starting at 270 out to 320. That would increase the effect of the blocking pines on the left if you leave it too far left. A perfectly positioned long drive down the right side would still be of great advantage, but your line would have to be perfect. But most importantly, it would give the players some uncomfortable stances, a result that is compounded if you....

- Shrink and reshape the green. The 15th was designed at a time when people were approaching it with fairway woods. Jones wanted you to risk the lake, but a small green would have mitigated against taking that risk if you are 230 out. People now hit middle irons (or less) into the green. Cut the green to a third of its current size and set it at an angle left to right.

- Funk up the contouring behind the green so that the current, severe downhill chip is even more difficult. Make hitting it long devoutly to be avoided.

I don't like the idea of a centerline bunker only because there already is one at the 2nd and the 8th. It would look repetitive to have one on 3 of the par 5's. But I don't dislike the idea on principle. (How 'bout we take out the centerline bunker at 2. It was a RTJ add anyway. It is actually anti-strategic.)

Bob

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