[Pete Shaw]

  The World Atlas of Golf (published by Hamlyn Press - no relation to this website??) states that the most copied classic hole in golf is the 15th (Redan) at North Berwick, Scotland.   The 17th at Shinnecock Hills is one that comes to mind.
   For all you course designers out there, Do you agree with that premise and what makes 'Redan' so worthy of copying?

  Regards,
      Pete from Oz

[Pete Shaw]

You can tell I'm new here.  I just found the topic "Tillinghast and the redan" a few pages back!
Hope you don't mind further discussion on the topic?

[Sandman]

Pete,

Not sure, think that I am correct here but it is the 7th hole at Shinnecock that is refered to as "The Redan".    

[Forrest Richardson]

The Redan itself may not be the most copied, as it is a par-3. The percentage of par-3s designed/created is less than 30% of all total holes designed/created.

But, in terms of "copied" holes (i.e., those truly "recreated")  the Redan's hallmark challenge — an oblique angle to attack and a hazard fronting the shot to a green — may well be the most sought after of look and feel.

A "redan" is a well fortified position; a fortification where two parapets meet at a salient angle (note: a “salient” is a outwardly projecting part of a fortification); the word redan comes from that meaning a french fortress, fronted by long, deep trenches, which was assaulted by the British during the Crimean War.

The "Redan Hole" refers to the par-3, 15th hole at North Berwick; also generally refers to a hole mimicking the “Redan Hole” with the green slightly elevated and sitting at angle to the line of flight with a menacing hazard fronting the angled green; such a hole requires a golfer to carry the hazard to access a middle or back pin placement or play safe to the front of the green and accept a long and more difficult putt.

[JDoyle]

Pete,

Southampton can claim two of the best Redan holes in the US.  The 7th at Shinnecock and the fantastic 4th at NGLA about 1/2 a mile to the north.  Both holes are classic examples of the iconic par three.

I feel this style of hole is so popular for course architects is because of it's established history and it's strategy.  The player is pushed from his robotic mentality into thinking from the moment he walks on the tee and begins to think of the shot he wants to play.

The Redan is also very popular here in the US because one of the best architects from the "Golden" age of design, Seth Raynor, employed the Redan in nearly all his courses: Yale, Fairfield, Yeamans's Hall, Camargo, etc.  He continued to use this style of hole that was taught to him by CBMacdonald.  Other designers studied what was hailed and praised and went on to emulate this style.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Southampton actually has 3 great Redans--the 7th.  Because it shares a couple of illustrious neighbors, it is easy of overlook Southampton.  There are several great holes --2-5, 7 and 8,  10, 15.

[Steve Lang]

 

How about the Redan fairway too?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There may be a little confusion in my post .  I meant the town of Southampton for the 3 Redans.  Southampton Golf Club which is adjacent to Shinnecock is a Raynor classic.

[Pete Shaw]

Gentlemen, thank you for your replies.   Forrest's in particular explained a lot.
  Isn't it interesting that most of what are generally considered classic holes rely more on slopes, knolls and angles for their (subtle) defence rather than in your face hazards and greenside rough.(Road Hole at TOC excluded!)
  Don't tend to see too much of the former on the PGA tour!

Regards  

[hp@hc]

I think Calamity at Royal Portrush has been copied several times in different areas of the country.  2 courses I have played have tried to imitate, without a whole lot of success I might add - Lob Lolly Pines in Florida and Hamilton Farms in North Jersey.

Any other calamity-wannabe's out there ?

[Cliff Hamm]

Could you please describe Calamity and what hole at Hamilton Farm copies this?

Cliff

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I would think some version of a cape hole is the most copyed. The increased use of man made lakes in the 70's 80's and 90's as well as the boom of courses in flat florida led me to this conclusion.

[hp@hc]

Cliff,

Testing my memory a little here, but I want to say it is # 17 at Hamilton Farms.  

Calamity is a par 3 of 200 yards, 215/220 off the back tee, with a huge drop to the right, essentially making it a forced carry all the way to the green.  Under normal conditions, which have a little wind in the puss, I would hit anywhere from a 3-iron to a 3-wood, but during the Irish InterVarsities all competitors were hitting drivers, with about 30% actually being able to reach the green.  

If your ball is right of the green at all, your ball will roll down the steep embankment to the bottom, which stops about 100 feet or so below the surface of the green.  It is a scary shot, and a bogey-4 is a good score once your ball starts rolling down!!

On the left of the green is a grass hollow, called Bobby Locke's Hollow, bacause during the British Open there over 50 years ago, he aimed for it, hit in it every day, and made par each time!

It is a great hole, maybe someone can post a pic of it for you, although it will not do the depth justice!

[Brian_Gracely]

Here's a picture of #14 (Calamity) at Portrush

[Bill_McBride]

Two holes I know which include the features described as "the Calamity" hole:

#3 Olympic Lake

#9 Belle Haven in Alexandria Virginia.

Those are tough holes!

[hp@hc]

Thanks Brian - looks like you are lined up for Bobby Locke's Hollow yourself.  Oh, and I would suggest a little more weight towards the balls of your feet - you are hanging back on your heels a little

[Brian_Gracely]

Thanks Brian - looks like you are lined up for Bobby Locke's Hollow yourself.  Oh, and I would suggest a little more weight towards the balls of your feet - you are hanging back on your heels a little

Yes, I aimed for the hollow......I ended up with a "hanging lie" on the dunes to the right....literally hanging.  As you know the course well, my ball ended up on a little strip of land (about 18-24" wide) that seems to wrap around the dune.  Unfortunately my stance needed to be taken with the ball at eye-level.  it was the first time I've ever hit a shot that went back over my head....and down to the bottom of the hill.  

And on your setup comment.....I've been playing the game for 25yrs now, and always thought my setup was decent and nobody had ever told me to make changes.  Since posting these pictures last week, the remote-viewer lessons have been coming in fast & furious, and I've been at the range every night trying to get my posture and balance corrected.  It's amazing what a little knee-bend can do for the swing    

[mike_malone]

 The #14 at Rolling Green is very similar to "calamity".It is not a copy since Flynn never went to Ireland,but i think our version is more difficult since there are bunkers and trees left versus the grass hollow there.

[hp@hc]

Mayday,

With all due respect, you may have the trees and bunkers, but you are missing the 40+ mph winds, gusts and horizontal rain that often greets you as you step on the tee at Calamity.

I would defer to those who have played both to decide which is harder - that excludes me, how 'bout you?

Can anyone who has played both please weigh in

[Cliff Hamm]

Thanks...from your description it would be the 17th at Hamilton Farm.  It has huge, deep traps instead of grass though with a drop off to the right.  The 17th at Waverly Oaks in Plymouth, MA., a Seth Raynor inspired course by Silva and Mungeam I think, is also similar as I recall.

[mike_malone]

 HP
    I agree with the wind.Although i have played "calamity" four times i did not  experience severe winds any time.I can recall 50mph at Ballybunion and the shot to #12 was impossible.So i can imagine what you are saying.
    But assuming reasonable winds,ours has more trouble and less bailout.The drop on the right is some 40-50 feet.

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