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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2001, 08:23:00 AM »
Mark -

I have given your question a lot of thought the last 24 hours while I was standing at my press mindlessly pumping out t's.

I stand by my previous comment that I can understand the pressure(i.e. financial need) for archies to build courses of "Championship length." However, I'm not so sure the solution is length, if the question is "How does one challenge the best players?" It seems to me that the best way to challenge the players is to put holes right on the cusps of par - I guess everyone else calls these holes half pars. Put the temptation in to go for the big shot, but at the same time, make sure that the penalty for missing it is enough to put some doubt into the players' minds. Also, make sure that there are elements to ensure that the "safe" option is not always taken - maybe cross bunkers at layup distances, coupled with a green that doesn't just mindlessly accept short wedges.

Look at a hole like Riviera 10. Damn short par 4, but certainly no pushover. Birdieable & bogeyable with probably equal likelihood. Same holds true for TOC #12, especially with a little wind. The Road Hole would not be a pushover, even if it went back to being called a par 5. Sure, the plus or minus numbers would change a little, but the stroke average would stay the same.

Lastly, when I think about Cherokee Plantation during the Els/Duval match, I don't recall it being "tricked up" - just challenging greens that didn't present easy up & downs & easy 2 putts. They didn't seem to be at unreasonable speeds. I don't think pros, or even better amateurs, struggle with lightning quick greens if the greens are concurrently flat, which seems to be all too true of today's monster length courses.

No matter how long a course is, some joker on tour is gonna shoot a low number if the only course defense is length & maybe long rough. Somebody is gonna hit a bunch of fairways & greens. I think good green complexes challenge everyone(except maybe the rank beginner) more than length.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2001, 02:16:00 AM »
JohnS:

Another valuable post! The paragaraph starting with the words 'This is so true...' and following on for the next few paragraphs is as explanatory and comprehensive in examples of the logic of hard and fast and width as could ever be needed to convince someone to do these things or restore them to courses that were designed for them. Those paragraphs should be printed by committees that are now into considering these resortoration elements.

I don't know that I would call firm and fast conditions (through the green) an  actual "design" element either but it's certainly as necssary and important as many actual design elements.

I like to call it part of the proper "maintenance meld" in which the analogy would be that it is the lights that make the art come to life. I think a good example or barometer of this might be the redan hole at NGLA. There are so many nuances in how to play that hole when the course is really fast through the green (with firm and fast greens too) although under those conditions the options (nuances) appear to be quite narrowly spaced and of super high demand and intensity. But on this particular hole that is a very good thing. This particular hole (in those conditions) just doesn't present the golfer a lot of options, just basically one very interesting and unusual one! Our caddy mentioned that Tiger Woods sent a moon-ball fade in there high over the redan bunker from 195yds in 1995. But for the time being I discount that shot and would even bet that the course and green may not have been in its super firm and fast tournament condition. If it was even CB's statue would have started rocking!

And there are so many ways to MISPLAY that  hole too with what would seem quality shots if you aren't thinking! But I think the hole is a good and exciting barometer because under those conditions if you hit the shot into the banking (shoulder) contours to the right of the putting surface there is that second of anticipation if you have done it just right! And under those very fast and firm conditions if you have done it right the ball will slowly release onto the putting surface and start filtering left and down the green and out of view. It is without doubt the very coolest sights I have ever seen in golf of a ball reacting on the ground to brilliantly conceived and constructed golf architecture!!

Last year when the course was really fast (faster than this year) a couple of our shots on the putting surface of #4 were moving so slowly left and down the green that we were screaming on the tee, "Go, Go!". The balls may have been in motion on the putting surface for maybe 20 seconds! How cool is that?

So good explanatory stuff from you on firm and fast condtions through the green. As to width, I'm a believer that holes should be closely analyzed as to their fairway contour and slope and in relation to the orientation and meaning of the green from particular angles of approach. If there isn't much fairway contour or slope or meaningful green orientation and such, they might be good candidates for narrowing down the fairway lines. This to me just plays into the area of variety and is good for golf too.

The perfect example of that might be #10 Merion! There used to be a ton of fairway straight on at the green (from the tee) over the left carry bunker. I'll save talking about that for another time and whether it would play better and more interesting with the fairway width restored or narrowed as it now is. That sort of question might very well turn on something unusual like the modern 60 degree L wedge which Wilson/Flynn obviously did not see coming!


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2001, 06:10:00 AM »
Tom Paul:

I am going to start a separate thread on #5 at Southern Dunes - a great example of how Steve Smyers can make a short hole that doesn't take away the advantage of a long hitter.  I think it is one of the best par 4s around, but know that it took several times of playing it before I thought it was GREAT and groundbreaking instead of just a real good short hole.

No matter how you play, there is a way to tackle #5.  Yet a scratch player can easily run into trouble.  Because it is short, it doesn't back up play like some longer holes do.

I'll try to start the thread today and hope it will lead others to do the same in describing holes that answer the question posted here.  "What's an architect to do regarding length?"


JamieS

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2001, 08:09:00 PM »
Mark,
To answer a couple of your previous questions:
The length of Merion during the yournament was just over 6600 yards. We did not play the new back tees on holes #5 & #18. There was also a new tee under construction on #6 that would add about 20-30 yards to that hole.
Merion would have been a challenge from any length that weekend...we could've added a few diamond faced wedges, the ole' Titleist Balata and still have had all the golf you ever wanted. It was the toughest test I have faced under tournament conditions, and loved every minute of it.
I overheard that there are some plans to add additional length to prepare for the 2005 US AM. Some new tees are being planned for a few more holes. Thankfully, there is just a lack of space that will not allow too many changes to the gem it is now.

TEPaul

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2001, 08:48:00 PM »
If you let your mind walk through Merion after the latest tee yardage additions, it seems to me that the entire front nine is completely maxed out! All I can think of as potential candidates are #14 & #15. If they find any room anywhere else, I for one sure wouldn't recommend it.

I'm hoping like JamieS that they leave it the way it is. It's always been a par 70 afterall and I think they are rediscovering some basic design defenses that the course has had all this time anyway.

I think Nick Faldo answered this question of Merion being too short or obsolete best. I also believe he answered the question put to him very honestly. He said that total card yardage at a course like Merion is meaningless. The reason being it has a number of some of the very best short and very short par 4s in the world! And furthermore after answering the question he punctuated it with; "look which holes out there tripped me up!"


John_Sheehan

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2001, 02:33:00 PM »
TEPaul-
Once again I must thank you for your kind words.  Among my own playing companions, my opinions are about as welcomed as rainstorm at an outdoor wedding reception.  In their defense, I am quite sure I sound like a broken record to them.  Ah, the closer one is to home, the less one is appreciated.   So, it is a great feeling to be sharing ideas with kindred spirits who listen, and sometimes even agree.

BTW, I very much like your term "maintenance meld." It is perfect. I hope you don’t mind if I not only start using it, but eventually claim that I myself invented it.   Good poets borrow, but the great ones steal.  

I have never had the opportunity to play NGLA or Merion, so I don’t have the first hand knowledge you do, but I loved your description of the Redan at NGLA, and particularly your spirited description of the slow rolling shot. Very cool, indeed!

By the way, I will transfer the last couple of posts to some kind of “Hand-Out” format and we can start flooding green committees with them. Like any good subversive organization, we’ll have to have a catchy name, to attract followers to our movement.  Once we get a good name, we’ll need a secluded wooded retreat, somewhere in Northern California (preferably near the wine country), where we and like-minded souls can sit around a huge bonfire, exchange secret hand shakes, share noble GCA ideas with passion, compassion and vision, and plot our next move.  

As to your comment regarding fairway width:
“As to width, I'm a believer that holes should be closely analyzed as to their fairway contour and slope and in relation to the orientation and meaning of the green from particular angles of approach.”

This is very interesting, and a different approach than I myself have taken in the past.  I have always believed that strategy started at the green.  While this might be the best way to analyze a hole for strategic playing purposes, I have always held that fairway design should start there also.  You got me to thinking that perhaps I am mistaken.  

If I understand you correctly, design would be more of an iterative process, where angles in the fairway would influence the design and contours of the green.  Then the green itself, the shots it requires, would influence the width of the fairway. Could you expand upon this?  

I realize that this is an over simplification, and that many other factors (e.g.,the original natural setting, elevation change, the desire for hole variety, etc.) influence overall design, but I have always thought that the green design influences approach angle, which in turn then influences fairway design.  Width I always saw as being influenced by a combination of the demand of the tee shot,  the defense of the green, and the desired psychological impact.  In other words, if the green is well defended by bunkers, contours, slopes, etc. the choices of fairway width could be myriad, including the approach of “give ‘em enough rope off the tee to hang themselves,” and make the fairways as wide as the property allows.  I have always favored that approach too.

I would be interested to hear more on your thinking here.  


Mark_Huxford

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2001, 03:46:00 PM »
>>
MacKenzie used to say something to the effect that rough is the last defense of a poorly designed golf course.
<<

Does anyone have the exact quote? Dan?

Mark,


rjbay

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2001, 04:22:00 PM »
Neat question, hope we get some more response, you have to really understand and remember just how good some guys are, yet design a hole playable for the rest of us.

#5 Twisted Dune, looks pretty easy at first blush, but maybe not. Hole is 334 yards from the daily tee, downhill and reachable for the longest hitters in that it is slightly downhill. Slight dogleg left, a little blind off the tee. Fairway is 55 yards wide in the hitting area to 300 yards out then starts to a squeeze nearing green.Green small and falls front to back. Best play is to drive it 200-250 yards off tee, leaving full shot from easy angle to small green however as you hit it further approach angle becomes more acute, and if you don't drive it left you are left with a tough shot over a big bunker. In that the longest hitters can get a little pitch or reach the green I think they will be tempted to hit the big stick.
But if they hit it even a little right of center, the shot is really tricky. Tuck the pin behind the big bunker right of the green and the only play is center of the green, no matter how good you are!  Not to bore you with our golf hole but I think architects have lots of ways to fight the ball and players being stronger and longer, it just requires really thinking of how to make them try to bludgeon the hole into submission, then you stick them with the stilletto. Reward the shorter hitter with extra roll and let the bomber hit into an upslope unless they find a speed slot, then he (or she) should be rewarded for having both length and accuracy. (length +accuracy=skill)
Often a golf course has slope only the longest hitters can take advantage of, they really don't need the help. I truly believe that if you understand how long some of the best players are you can confuse or bait them into some traps (not bunkers) much like a great poker player traps a good one. Don't try to trap a bad player, you don't have to and they wouldn't know you are doing it anyway. good question which I am sure will bring some great replies!


TEPaul

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
That is the very idea that Steve Smyers was alluding to. Archie, the hole you mentioned at Twisted Dunes sounds very interesting,   incorporating many of the strategic concepts I was trying to explain above.

Just take the old concept of lots of open space past the challenges for the good and strong player and turn it upside down and you come up with a hole like yours!


archie aka rjbay

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »
Thomas

To take this concept to the next level just cant the fairway as you go farther to nudge the ball in the wrong direction, giving only the perfectly directed long shot the good angle, as Twisted gets firmer, I think you will see what I was thinking more clearly on a lot of the holes. Hope to see you soon, we have a small tournament July 11th, a Wednesday.


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