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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« on: June 30, 2001, 11:30:00 AM »
It's a rainy day in NW Florida so I am watching the Senior Open at Salem on TV. Johnny Miller just pointed out the "old-fashioned" mowing pattern in the fairways as seen from the blimp. The left side of the fairway might be cut from tee to green, the right side from green back toward the tee. Johnny says that means the grain runs in opposite directions depending on direction of the mowing. Is this possible?  I thought grain was determined by location of water or setting sun.

Johnny also mentioned that the pros were complaining about the slow pace of the greens. Sounds like somebody at the USGA remembers the pace of the greens at Pinehurst and kept the stimp under 10!  Is this possible?


TEPaul

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2001, 12:56:00 PM »
Johnny says he can't stand the old fashioned up and back fairway cut! Says it makes the fairways look half the size.

I love that cut and it's a neat return to the old gang mower look that you can pick up on so many of the old aerials from the 1920s and 1930s of many of the classic courses.

Obviously the USGA likes the look. Shinnecock has that fairway cut and look right now. The grain they're talking about is probably just from the direction of the mower.  


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2001, 08:27:00 AM »
Tom, I'm a bit confused about that grain. The grass at Salem is a bent varietal, right? So there isn't grain as we know it in FL with bermuda.  Does the mowing impart a definite grain which will impede the roll of a ball into the mowing pattern? I guess that's what I didn't understand. I don't recall ever seeing enough grain in bent that direction of mowing would be a big deal, but certainly with Bermuda it is a big deal on the greens.

Do you have a caddie to specifically recommend at Bandon/Pacific Dunes? I need all the help I can get!


T_MacWood

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2001, 08:55:00 AM »
I probably grew up playing the game with this mowing patern--I do remember the gang mowers, but really don't remember the two tone look. But as a viewer on TV I think it is distracting and makes it difficult to appreciate the architecture. I'm all for confusion and interesting dilemmas, but I think the mowing patterns should remain nuetral.

Boothill(Steve Wilson)

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2001, 08:55:00 AM »
Some of the fairways at Brora show the same phenomenon, and I assume that grass has to be  bent. The shiny strip was clearly visible (and intimidating on the par five as the fairway appeared to be about twenty yards wide)when the sunlight was striking it (didn't require a blimp shot).  It's the repeated mowing that does it, I presume.  If they alternated starting points with every other mowing the tendency of the grass to "lean" would be neutralized.  The tight lies at Brora negated the effect on ball striking, but, all the same, you couldn't help but be aware of it.  

aclayman

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2001, 08:58:00 AM »
Whining Pros? Gotta love it!
Could slowing the  greens really be respondsible for raising scores and subsequently make everyone look tupid?

A guy could make a fortune on putter's specifically design for 3's & 4's on the stemp.


Laun M

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2001, 02:58:00 AM »
A year or two ago the greenkeeper at Royal Worlington started cutting the fairways in a criss-cross pattern. The members did not take kindly to such a revolutionary change to their golf course - "This isn't a bloody American parkland course!" was what one member told me. After about ten days the experiment finished and the "out and back" cutting returned.

TEPaul

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2001, 03:25:00 AM »
Bill MacB:

I'm no super, but that down and back mowing pattern can't be any more than what the mowers do to the grass when they roll across it. What is grain anyway, but the way the grass leafs lay for whatever reason? If I'm wrong about that I'm sure one of the supers that contributes on this site will correct me. It's probably the same thing we all see when we mow our own lawns. The grass lays down in the direction the mower is going. The wheels, rollers or the blades apparently do that to the grass.

I generally agree with Tom MacWood on most things architecture but maybe not on the look and playability of the old down and  back fairway mowing pattern. I like it for a couple of reasons; 1/ It's a return to the old and classic look and playability of the old classic courses and that in and of itself is going in the right direction, in my opinion. 2/ It really is a different, sort of stunning and psychologically off-putting look from the tee! As to how much difference there is about which half of the fairway you actually hit with your ball and what that does to roll and lie, well, there probably is some small difference but really not enough to overly concern yourself with.

But it is just another little interesting wrinkle of how an architect or super can do something to get in the players head and make him deal with it and overcome it. It's another small example of the little problems and solutions, questions and answers that golf architecture presents to the player and how he deals with it. All good things, in my opinion.


redanman

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2001, 06:09:00 AM »
ANGC was accused of mowing the fairways green to tee to slow roll a few years ago, n'est-ce pas?

I would believe that the difference is relatively negligible at those fairway cut heights used by the USGA.  

Any grass guys have the answer?  I know more about announcers than grass!  


ForkaB

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2001, 06:38:00 AM »
"Boothill"

As I'm sure you recall, Brora does not have "fairway" or "rough" per se, but just proper and increasingly vexing angles to the green.  In some cases the proper angle is from the "rough" (e.g. the drive/approach on the 17th must be taken to/from the "rough" on the side of the hill on the right).  The same is (or was) the case at Stanford's 9th, where the good players would always bomb their drives up the hill on the left to get the right angle of approach to the green).

Fairways/Schmairways.  It's the topography that counts.


geopar

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2001, 06:53:00 AM »
Hi Bill , good question , and  you've  got  some  good  answers from  previous posts.      Here  are  some  things  supers  do  to  negate  the  effect  of  grain :                1) lower  and  more  frequent  mowing ( less  leaf equals  less  deflection  on  ball    2)  verticutting  ( removes  lateral  shoot growth  and  promotes  more  upright  growth of  leaf                                 3)  light  topdressing ( promotes  upright  growth )                                       4)  multi-directional  mowing ( each  direction  of  mower  pushes  leaf  to  new  direction and  allowes  for  more  leaf  to  be removed )                                     5) "reverse "  brushing  and  dragging ( picks  leaf  blades  up  to  allow  for  cleaner  mowing  and  promotes  upright  growth)                                          6) fertility  management ( "leaning-out" fert. ,particually nitrogen , reduces  growth . Less  growth  equates  to  less  grass  influencing  ball  roll and  minimalizes differences  of  speed  and  grain  from  early  morning  to  late  afternoon . Many  supts. want  turf  completley "out"  of N. come  tourney  time !                            7)  Irrigation ( drier  leaf  blades  are  "weaker" and  therefore  offer  less  resistance ) Interestingly though ,  a  little  water  applied  1 or 2  hours  ahead  of  mowing  will  cause  the  grass  to  "perk-up" just  enough to  facilitate a  more  upright  growth  and  cleaner  mowing .         Now if  I  may say  something concerning  mis-conceptions about grain . 1) Bent  can  be  "grainer"  than  Bermuda , it  all  depends  on  the  cultural  factors  employed ! 2) THE  GREASTEST  factor  affecting  grain  is  GRAVITY !!  Grass  will  grow  in  several  directions  on  multi-tiered  , humped , or  rolling  greens . On  mountain  or  seaside  courses , the  ball  always  goes  downhill  or  toward  the  ocean  gecause  of  GRAVITY . The  grass  grows in  that  direction  also because of GRAVITY . Courses  built "into"  the  "natural  terrain" with  existing  water  features will  tend  to  slope  towards these  features  because  that  is  where  the  surrounding  land  drains ( again , GRAVITY )  Artifically  constructed  water  features  may/or may  not  have  anything  to  do  with  the  overall  lay  of  the  land , and ergo may/ or may not influence ball  roll  or  grain .   Salem  comment : WOW ! Just wish T.V. could  do justice  to  those  Ross  green  contours . And  by  the  way , those  green  speeds  appear to  be " wicked" going  downhill . Any  faster and/or firmer would  be  boarder line un-playable . Cheers , geo    

Boothill

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »
Well Rich, Brora may not have rough and fairway per se, but I do distinctly remember being in some damned long grass  . And I do recall seeing the mowing pattern that irks Johnny Miller.  That being said, your remarks about 17 have reminded me of that gorgeous hole.  I didn't bother to look at the card when I walked onto the tee and just assumed from the spectacle in front of me that it was a par five.  Given my 'length', it was a par five and played my layup to the right side before I played my approach.  Great hole and I was very happy with three fives on it.  I played it three times, I didn't make a 15.

Did you get to Brora this time or did you concentrate all your efforts at RDGC.  And have they finished the projected changes/additions to the Struie.  If I ever make it back I want to spend a week there alternating the courses.  Struie sounds like fun and more suited to my game.

Regards,
Steve Wilson


MikeA

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2001, 05:46:00 PM »
Here at the TPC in The Woodlands we mow our fairways and tees in only one direction (tee to green)beginning approx. one week prior to the Shell Houston Open.  You would be amazed at how much more roll a ball will get.  We do have bermudagrass as our primary grass and it is overseeded with ryegrass when the tournament is here.  Comments from the players over the past three years has been positive (they do notice), but then I wouldn't complain either if I could get a little more distance out of each drive I hit in the fairway.


ForkaB

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2001, 06:00:00 PM »
Stevew

I didn't get to Brora this time, as it was mostly a family holiday.  I did hear that there is a big flap going on at the moment over the attempt by the club to buy out the rights of the crofters to graze their livestock on hte fariways.  Perhaps the sheep are on a sit-down (sic) strike and that's why the rough has grown.  Vis a vis the 17th, I've played that hole 30 times or so, mostly as a 5 handicapper and I don't think I've ever made par.  It is a fascinating hole because a drive into the "fairway" to the left leaves you with a long iron to a plateau green with a gaping bunker in front that only gods can execute.  Also as that is where the crofter's cattle tend to gather to chew the fat, you often have to invoke Rule 25 to get your your ball (literally) out of the merde.  Yet, in the "rough" to the right, after a carry of 250 or so there is a nice little plateau that gives you a shot to the width of the green.  You'll rarely see a good Brora player (of whom there are many) in the 17th fairway.

As for the improved Struie, it will not be ready for play until 2003.  But, when it is.........VA VA VA VOOM!  More on this later.


Gary Sherman

Salem CC Grain in the Fairways
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2001, 05:02:00 AM »
Kip Tyler interviewed in the Boston Globe this morning stated that the mowing pattern leaves no grain because the fairways are double cut at 7/16.  At this height, there is no grain. The fairways were mowed in this pattern in order to keep the fairway mowers out of the rough.  If you cut using the herringbone mowing pattern, the fairway mowers have to turn in the rough, thus matting the rough down.

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