Is it the Job of the Architect to Align the Golfer?

[RobertWalker]

Pat Mucci,
You remind me of Monty Python.
What is the speed of a Sparrow?
An African Sparrow or a European Sparrow?
(ISFH)

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

Get me to answer your incessant goofy questions once. ("A Quiz.") Shame on you.

Get me to answer your incessant goofy questions twice? (Cf. above.) Shame on me!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Robert Walker,

It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand the significance of the question.

Study Jeremy's diagram in the context of my question, then think of how a square or rectangular tee would be mowed.

Then try to make the connection between time, money and maintainance headache with the circular tee and surrounding area, eapecially if there is any slope nearby.

Dan Kelly,

Likewise, it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand, and can't answer the question from a maintainance perspective.

[TEPaul]

Robert Walker:

A sparrow of the British Isles you silly rabbit! A sparrow from anywhere else is just some old bird!

[Steve Wilson]

Ed Baker

You wrote:  "One of the more obvious reasons would be so that the "shape challenged"      golfers wouldn't confuse them with greens and shell everybody"

and that brings to mind a Peter Dobereiner story of encountering a small, do it yourself course in Ireland where all the tees were round and all the greens were rectangular.  His best guess was that someone got the blueprints backwards.

[jglenn]

Patrick,

To be perfectly honest with you, since I can’t “read” your tone of voice, I’m not sure if you are pulling my leg or if you are asking sincere questions. If it’s the former – which I still wonder if it is – then I’m posting, without belittlement, for the benefit of those who actually might not know how one might mow a tee (or a green, a fairway, etc...).  If it’s the latter, then thanks for asking.

One way or another, I’m not sure exactly what it is you want to know, but I’ll try to help.  In my mind, mowing a cicular tee – or an irregular tee – is, if anything, a little easier than mowing a square or rectangular tee.  The reason being is that the corners are always a little tricky to get right, especially with a triplex.  In fact, if you put a gun to my head and told me that I had to decide ease-of-mowing order, then I’d say a circular tee is probably the easiest shape to mow, followed by an ameba-shape, and finally a rectangle.

By and large, apart from the knitty-gritty details, mowing anything of any shape follows the pattern illustrated above, whether a triplex or a walk-behind.    First you go back-and-forth, and finally you do the all-important “clean-up pass” along the edge.  There is very little difference or inconveniences to mow one shape rather than another.

[RJ_Daley]

Oh I might as well declare myself in this aesthetic sensibility fest of proper tee alignment and appearance.  I like "teeing grounds" of generally free form that can at times wind up rectangular or can be an hill or hummock topped off to basically level and a place from which to start the hole.  That may be an amoeba or a lazy L or whatever.  I don't give a darn if it is vectored into an LZ prime spot.  Sorry Pete, we had this discussion and neither of us has changed our minds.  

[TEPaul]

Bill Spellman:

I will be in touch. Yes #6 fairway has been narrowed significantly, certainly on the far right. Long ago, certainly in 1930, there was a good play of caroming the ball off the far right side of that fairway.

The best place to see the way the course was in various years, particularly 1930, is Geoff Shackelford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design". There are two good aerials on pages 68 and 72. Page 72 is reportedly 1930 and if you scan the fairways in that shot you can see how wide they used to be. There couldn't have been more than ten steps between #14 and #18 for instance and #14 fairway came very close to the road!

They will be expanding some of their fairways as of now, certainly #11 and #6, I'm told, and maybe 4-5 others. The fairway should also be going around the rightside carry bunker down by #5 green too to bring back the carom play onto the green if someone wants to use that option--a very good option to return on a hole that is now up to 470yds. #6 has also had significant yardage added bringing it to almost 460 so the old right side fairway may bring back another old play.

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

Man, you can be   irritating. If that's what you're   aiming for, at least you're good   at it.

You wrote, to me: "t doesn't surprise me that you don't understand [mowing patterns], and can't answer the question from a maintainance perspective."

Well, of COURSE I can't answer the question! I know NOTHING about maintenance. I never CLAIMED to. Ever. Anywhere!

I merely asked, way up there -- because I'm interested in learning something here (strange goal, eh?)   -- why I haven't seen any circular tees.

If you KNOW why, and it's a maintenance issue, why don't you just TELL me -- instead of continuing to ask your asinine questions, which may or may not be tongue-in-cheek? I don't see any of your silly smily faces around (which, judging by our past encounter, seems to be the only way for a person to tell that you're joking).  

Thanks to Jeremy Glenn -- for attempting to address my question, and for being equally (and completely understandably) bemused by your manner.

[Dan Kelly]

I know, I know.

Shame on me.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeremy,

Would you agree that many tees are built on an elevated fill or foot pad.

Would you also agree that some tees sit on or near pronounced elevations, either due to the terrain the tee sits on, or by design ?

I believe the answer to both questions is yes, which means the following:

If a crewmember is riding a triplex mower, under your example, he has to leave the fill pad, he has to go to the exterior of the tee, most likely encountering slopes,
which can be dangeroous.  In addition, the wear and tear of the tight turn radius will result in damaged and unsighly turf, right where the golfer's eyes will look.

With a square or rectangular tee, the turns can be made within the interior of the tee, eliminating the hazard of the mower encountering the surrounding slopes.

Now it is true, that you may get some corner fill, but that can be fixed.

Even if hand mowers are used, the same principles and problems exist.

Dan Kelly,

In my post of 10-11-01 at 6:46 pm, I asked you a simple, legitimate, serious question.

In your response post of 10-11-01 at 9:58 pm,
you gave a cutesy pie and flip answer,
so I merely pressed the issue.

If you really wanted to learn, as you state,
perhaps you would have responded with a more legitimate question, or asked for clarification on my question, instead you chose to be flip, and I responded in kind.

Rather than belittle a question, or point of view, perhaps you and Robert Walker should make an attempt to reflect upon and understand it, first

Geoffrey C,

Using Jeremy's method, in his example, is it possible to mow the back tee at # 13 at Boca Rio ?

Do you also think that many courses in Florida and elsewhere, elevate their tees ?

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

One man's "cutesy pie and flip" is another man's funny.

Oh, well.

OBVIOUSLY, by what I had said above that, I am not an expert on the design or maintenance of tees -- so you should have known perfectly well that I was not prepared to answer your question.

It was beyond my background to benefit from "reflect(ing) upon and understand(ing) your question." I'm looking for answers here, not some penny-ante Socratic dialogue with you.

And furthermore, I did not "belittle" your question or your point of view. YOU HADN'T EXPRESSED A POINT OF VIEW!

I thought my answer was funny. It was designed to make you smile. Do you smile? Of course you do!  

Oh, well.

See you on the cutesy-pie side.

Or nowhere.

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

Oh, and in case you really didn't understand this:

I was teasing you about getting excessive information from nicely aligned tees.

For my part, of course, I want some sort of laser-beam device with which I can precisely line up my feet, my shoulders, my club face . . .

[Don_Mahaffey]

It really is amazing where some of these threads end up.
Pat,
Mowing round tees is actually easier then mowing square ones. And, I'm talking about tees like those found on a desert course where you often have to do your turns on the tee itself. Square tees are a pain with the squared corners and they are tough to mow any way except with the line of play. Although you'll see some square tees in the desert, most are rounded making mowing a little easier.

[RobertWalker]

Pat Mucci,
Your MO is to belittle.
(ISFH)
Examples:

"It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand the significance of the question."
(ISFH)
or your obvious disdain for the "minimum wage worker"
(ISFH)
I do find it interesting that you and I are in agreement on this tee thing though.(ISFH)

I mean I like square flat "tee boxes" for the exact same reason that you do, and you are right, the Golden Age Designers for the most part, chose flat rectangular boxes, generally aimed in the right direction, but I recall that Ross did say somewhere along the line that a little mis-direction here and there was not a bad thing when it came to tee boxes.(ISFH).(ISFH).(ISFH).(ISFH)

[RobertWalker]

Now, one last thing about tees.
No matter how well or poorly the tee is aligned, all players of all abilities need to take there own aim, and not beg the designer to personally come to the course to set the markers and to stand behind the palyer until he is in perfect alignment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Robert Walker,

If you re-read this thread in chronlological order, you will see that it was YOUR post that started the sniping, not mine.

You wanted your tees as close to dead level as possible, and I pointed out that that type of tee construction would create drainage problems, something you overlooked.

There was no disdain for "minimum wage workers", just a statement of fact.  
You wanted precision in the alignment of your tee markers, to the center of the driving zone.  The fact is that minimum wage workers tend to perform those tasks and precision alignment isn't something that's going to get done in the real world.

Airport security has been delegated to "minimum wage workers".  People are now realizing that if you want precision, superior quality control, you have to pay for "professional" help, not delegate the job to "minimum wage workers".

If you disagree with these positions, please let me know.

I don't mind if you agree or disagree with me on any topic, but whatever position you take, have some facts on your side.  Since I have answered every question you pose, try to answer all of mine, even if it undermines your position. (ITSFH)

[John Bernhardt]

Tom, well it is clear you have noticed that I cannot type. The modern world has caught up with me. I cannot see myself dictating my posts like I do letters.

[RobertWalker]

OK Pat Mucci,
let me correct myself, and re-state:

Tees should be as close to dead level as "practical". If you use certain construction techniques, I think that tou can get real close to dead level and not have drainage problems. I agree with you about the shapes of tees. Interestingly, Tom Daok dislikes the very thing that you and I like, for the very reasons that I (You too?) like.

[ForkaB]

Tom Paul et. al.

I suspect that if you did a survey of all the tees that Ross et. al. "misaligned" virtually all of them would aim to the right.  I would propose that this is due to the fact that Ross, and most good players of his day, played a strong right to left game, and aligning a tee to the right would be helpful, whilst aligning one towards the left would be distasteful and personally disastrous to them .

PS--to those whose WWF Mowing Patterns/"I'm OK, You're not OK" Battle Royal I have rudely interrupted, sorry for getting back on topic.  Gentlemen, restart your invective!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

There is so much I don't know about architecture, construction, agronommy, golf history, etc.,etc..

When someone asks me a question, and I don't know the answer, I say so, rather than post a response that could be interpreted or misinterpreted as cute and flip.  That is, if I truely want to learn, which I do.

I will admit to being cute and flip at times.

We cannot view the person we're engaged with in dialoque, can't decipher the tone of their voice, hence the smiley face helps indicate good intentions.  I think you would agree that one hundred smiley faces could be interpreted differently.

Don Mahaffey,

I was responding to the post made by Jeremy, in which he provided a diagram for circular tee mowing patterns.  That pattern won't work near steep slopes, water, etc.,etc..

I would think that the ease or difficulty in mowing circular tees with riding tri-plex mowers is directly proportionate to their diameter and the surrounding terrain.

Robert Walker,

I think we agree that we prefer square or rectangular tee boxes, for the reasons you state, including tradition.

I think 18 holes with properly aligned tee boxes is more appealing than 18 holes with misaligned tee boxes.  I think the latter would cause us to question: Who designed and built this course.

[Dan Kelly]

Patrick Mucci --

Misinterpreted.  

Thank you for the respectful reply.

[Dan Kelly]

Rich Goodale --

Come on in, Buddy! There's plenty of room for you to join the Battle Royal! Take a side!

(Which, of course, IS on topic, since it was my suggestion, dozens of posts ago, that circular tees would be a perfect answer for all camps -- always perfectly aligned; always completely unaligned.)

[Harvey]

Take Dead Aim (isfh)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

That's a very interesting theory.

I would ask Brad Klein to comment.

What do Ross's pre-construction diagrams and drawings indicate >

Pre Nicklaus, wasn't it the general feeling amongst architects that a properly struck ball had draw, and a mishit, fade or slice ?