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THuckaby2

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2001, 12:08:00 PM »
GC - first, thanks again for the day at Yale.  I trust my post was suitably humble? That was darn fun.

OK, Applebrook v. PD v. BD...

You did hit the nail on the head - BD and PD are always gonna have the "scenery" factor given the dunes and the ocean.  But a certain PA Doctor is curing me of that "illness" - that is, making me see beyond the fog and Cypress trees.  So ok, while I still say you can't completely block this out - it is part of the deal - for comparison sake it is fair to stick to the golf shots at hand.  But even with this attitude, a course NOT having these "scenic" attributes is always gonna have to fight hard to compete with one that does, for me anyway.

Even with all this, Applebrook still compares VERY favorably.

The more I think about it, the more similar the courses become.  They each have wide fairways with many preferred and bad angles... They each require many types of shots... they each have very interesting greens...

I can't give more specifics than Tom Paul's above, so all I can say is the comparison struck me very well.  Applebrook can hold it's head up in whatever measure one uses.

TH


TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2001, 12:16:00 PM »
I meant the chipping area behind the last hole melded seamlessly into #14 tees not #15.

Hole #14.
Par 4, 440yds.
This is the one big forced tee shot carry at Applebrook. When I first saw the hole being built I thought the carry across wetlands on this hole was far too much but they hadn't extended the fairway well out to the left yet as they have now. This is a tee shot that the golfer will need real experience and to really calculate the conditions correctly to figure out where to aim and where to carry his tee shot. The hole seems to play about 65 Degrees right off the cape carry which seems quite sharp but the good news is the hole's approach doesn't appear to play anywhere near as long as you think it will if you hit the tee shot farther left than you think you should have. The approach from over about 175 is blind up to the green. The green is interesting with its small left front tier running into a swalish center and in the back offering a partial little "kick-up". This is a green that you can use the ground game but you should probably go out there and watch tons of shots coming in to figure out exactly how. Again the chipping area on the left of this green melds seamlessly into the tee of #15--the back tee is interesting this way as it is separated from the green by a bunker surrounded by the chipping area.

Hole #15.
Par 3, 220yds.
A long downhill par 3 over wetlands that will play shorter with the elevation change as well as the prevailing wind. The huge green with interesting internal contour is fronted by a long, wide fairway area running into the green and featuring three moundy knobs on the fairway. Each of the knobs are named for one of Gil's three children. Good bunkering on the right greenside and rough and woods farther out on the left. The most significant feature on this hole is the pretty tree on the left off the tee about 50yds. The tree gives the hole a restricted feeling--I wouldn't recommend that it stay around too long. This is a fairly solid par 3 but for some reason doesn't really do that much for me.

Hole #16:
Par 5, 605yds.
This hole extends straight out for about 500yds with the green sitting across a wetlands directly to the right of the end of the straight stretch. The tees are set slightly to the left and there is a bunker that eats in from the left that is very well placed. With experience I think the play is well to the right of this bunker although for some reason the hole and the tee shot doesn't seem to set-up that way bringing the left bunker more into play than it should be. The wide fairway runs out at around 300yds at a narrow perpindicular creek and will slow up the long hitters. I was told that it's conceivable to try to fly this or bounce it over it but I wouldn't recommend that. So the tee shot is to lay it up as close to this creek as possible.

Then you have quite a unique situation which is not at first particularly apparent as to  what to do. There is a great bunker and rough combo sitting right in the middle of an enormous second shot landing area. You know the hole is directly off to the right at the end across the wetlands so any golfer's natural instinct will be to lay up to the right of this bunker combo or even short right of it. The bunker combo is unbelievably visually deceptive as it looks like it's at the end of the fairway although there is a full 50yds of fairway behind it that can't be seen. With a little experience most golfer will probably learn to carry this center bunker off a good drive but most will try to get to the right of it or short and right of it. There not all that much real estate to the right of it as it runs into rough short and the wetlands out farther, but there is enough to appear to make this the only second shot play! Again like on #8 I would recommend that something be done to induce the golfer to think about the option of playing out to the left of this center bunker combo, something at the moment I can't see they would have any inclination to do at all. It appears playing out there is playing about 90 degrees away from the green when in fact you really aren't increasing the approach distance into the green as much as you think you are.

So what would induce the golfer to do something other than his immediate instinct to play short right or just right of this center bunker? Well when you talk about "instinct" you're again talking about the very motivation of Max Behr's "lines of charm" which is to put something right at the golfer's point of instinct thereby making him try other lines. So my recommendation would be to put something else short and to the right of this center bunker, again shrinking down more the golfers' available area to the right of the center bunker like on #8 and #10 (or at least make it appear that way with visual deception of some kind which would jibe well with the visual deceeption of the center bunker itself) and make the golfer look around for a less risky option like out to the left of the center bunker. I really think something more should be done on the right or the left option will rarely if ever be used. The third shot in across the wetlands is to a large par 5 green with again interesting internal contour and slope and a variety of nice pin placements some of which will dictate out to the placement of the second shot. This green apparently was the conceptual creation of Rodney Hine.

Hole #17.
Par 3, 175 yds.
Playing slightly uphill and most all carry across rough ground to a green that narrows a bit in the back and has a center perpindicular ridge that can create some real putting problems for a ball on the wrong side from the pin. This green is another example of many of the greens at Applebrook where it may not be enough to get your ball on the green to two putt. If some of Applebrook's greens aren't exactly "greens within a green" they're real close to being that! This hole has a bunker right greenside down a bit of a bank that looks from the tee to be almost out of play but is anything but. The interesting thing about this bunker is when you get up to the green you can see how much the bunker shares play on #17 with balls hit slightly long and right of the little par 3 #11.

Hole #18.
Par 4, 455yds.
Although this finishing hole will play down the prevailing wind to a degree it will probably play it's yardage and more due to the height of the green. The fairway is the widest yet over 60+ and even missing it right is no real problem. There is a left bunker but it really is far out there and with the width of the fairway shouldn't come into play at all. MikeC described this hole and some of the architectural issues he might have with it. There is the biggest bunker by far short and right of the green and at fairway grade well below the significantly elevated green. The green is wide but shallow for such a long hole with substantial bailout area to the left of the green making the conservative option to this hole play to a chip and putt half par! There is something about #18 down near the green-end that looks far more modern in concept than the rest of the holes at Applebrook. I can't really put my finger on it and I'm not talking about the waterfall to the right of it either.

So that's the holes of Applebrook. It's a different style than almost anything else we have around here and that's good. There are a few interesting aspects like how few forced carries there are on the par 4s and 5s (really only two) but three of the four par 3s are basically forced carries. I don't know why Gil did so many enormous accomodating fairways, maybe he did it because this is a wind course or maybe he did it to create a false sense of security and basically a second shot golf course or maybe for another reason. But most of it will be second shot or approach shot concentrated. Even that's somewhat subtle and the greens and the green surrounds will have a lot to do with that. It will probably be a course that does depend a lot on the force of the wind but even without the wind it may be a course that the golfer can hang himself slowly or even hang himself and not even realize why or how he did it.

Applebrook will be a course, though, that the members and Jarred Veriango need to keep the speed up both on the greens and particularly through the greens. That's what will really make Applebrook shine, it will make the big fairways play smaller and it will really bring to life all the interest in and around the greens. At least it sure appears to me that the course was designed for the need for speed and again for the members and Jarred not just speed on the putting surfaces but some real speed everywhere else--that's even more important, in my opinion. And with that Applebrook will be well respected as it should be!


ForkaB

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2001, 12:21:00 PM »
GeoffC

Recognizing that I’ve only played Applebrook once, Bandon twice and Pacific 4 times, here’s my take on the pros and cons of each.

Routing:

Strong edge to Applebrook vs. Pacific Dunes.  Less so vs. Bandon Dunes.  Lots of greens seamlessly flowing into chiping areas into the next teeing area.  No long walks.  Good variety of hole direction.  Good mix of size and type of hole.  Much better par-3’s than either course.  To me, the short 11th at Applebrook blows away the short 11th at Pacific.  All 3 courses have a great collection of par-4’s.  Par-5’s slightly better at Applebrook than Pacific and Bandon.

Bunkering:

Fairway bunkering almost as good as Bandon, better than Pacific.  Greenside bunking much better than Bandon, almost as good as Pacific.  A nice middle ground between the manufactured Bandon look and the wild look at Pacific

Other hazards:

Good and limited use of water hazards at Applebrook. Not as good as Pacific (or Bandon) on the natural off-fairway hazards (swales, gorse, etc.), but much better than either on the greenside use of contours to filter balls into difficult positions.  Another good comparison is between the green fronts of 6 at Applebrook and 14 at Pacific.  Each seems to be a tribute to “Foxy” at Dornoch.  Applebrook’s version is truly reminiscent and works, Pacific’s isn’t and doesn’t.

Green Complexes:

Somewhere between Bandon (gentle) and Pacific (severe) in terms of contour.  Good mix of green sizes.  More interesting pinnable positions per green than either Oregon course.  Some very interesting chipping problems which are posed.  Ground game options as good as Pacific and better than Bandon.

“Oneness”:

Both Bandon and Applebrook have a sense of being “themselves.”  There is a holistic feeling about each place and a common character to each hole, within the context of appropriate diversity in shot values.  Pacific I see as a bit schizophrenic—part County Down, part North Berwick (outward 9), part Painswick.

Fit and Finish:

Both Pacific and Applebrook have done 8 of the last 10% of the course really well.  Pretty small tweakings are required to bring them to some sort of pleasant organic equilibrium.  Bandon is still struggling to get that last 10% right, but when and if it does, it could be the best of the 3.

Rating:

I give each course 2* on my “Michelin” scale.

PS--you can all take this with a grain of salt due to the "golfing idiot" factor, as I also preferred Shinnecock to NGLA!


THuckaby2

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2001, 12:28:00 PM »
I wish I had the eye for stuff like this - I really don't, nor do I have the patience many here do to go point by point like Rich did.

I gotta compliment you also Rich for sticking with your guns, Shinny over NGLA.  Hell, they're both incredible.  I think you're crazy, of course, but that's cool.  To me NGLA was fun and Shinny was work... I'm always gonna give the nod to fun.

TH


TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2001, 12:37:00 PM »
I'm not really into comparing courses as most know and as most on this site are into. I like talking about what's good, bad and indifferent about particular holes and courses noncomparatively with other courses.

But this much I will say. In my opinion none of the others mentioned on here are in the same league as Pacific Dunes. Not Applebrook and not Bandon Dunes. Applebrook is a wonderful effort by Gil but the site alone can't remotely compare to Pacific Dunes. And there's a lot in the site irrespective of what any architect can do! I don't know whether it's some Doak and mostly God at Pacific Dunes or the other way around but that course in everyway is world class, world class!

Applebrook's first choice site is considerably better than what they ended up using but that doesn't detract any from Gil Hanse & Co.'s design---they did a great job with what they got!


aBandon hope, all ye who

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »
enter here.

Them Filleyedelfiums really fall for that ole Pacific Ocean effect, don't they Elmer!


john f

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2001, 01:39:00 PM »
Tom Paul,

Great descriptions!!! Can't wait to see the place from what you've described. Can someone please get out there w/ a digital camera so the rest of us who live vicarously through these postings can get even more excited????


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2001, 02:33:00 PM »
Applebrook is better than Pacific Dunes??   I have to start shaking my head and wonder what are we looking at???  

ForkaB

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2001, 03:03:00 PM »
Mark

Compared to our landlocked brethren, we're immune to the "Ocean Effect" out here in California, and also, maybe, just a wee bit insane....


TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2001, 04:15:00 PM »
I just don't think it's necessary to be discussing whether or not Applebrook is better than Pacific Dunes or not! The two courses are frankly quite different styles and playabilities on purpose. What we should discuss is the  quality of Applebrook vis-a-vis it's inherent potential, or the lack of it (and the same for  Pacific Dunes) and whether or not Hanse and Doak got the best they could out of vastly different sites and courses and if not, why not.

If you want to compare apples to apples anyone has to admit that Doak had a headstart because God gave him one--that is completely undeniable to anyone who knows the first thing about golf courses or architecture, in my opinion!

This is definitely not directed at you Rich; I have a lot of respect for your take on these courses although I may not agree with it or even completely understand your reasons. I'm willing to consider the pros and cons of an architect who may not get the max out of an "A" site compared to an architect who does get he max out of a "B" or "C" site, if that's where the discussion needs to lead.


THuckaby2

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2001, 04:49:00 PM »
TE Paul:

To me, these are all separate questions.

1. Which course is "better"?
2. Which course do I prefer?
3. Which course better showed the skill of the architect?

I could have three different answers for these.

Rich simply said Applebrook could be compared favorably with PD, with no qualifications.  He then gave them each the same "star" rating.

I can live with that.  To me, that's just a simple take on question 1, which I can agree with.  

But question 2 is different... and question 3 is VERY different.  Obviously you are correct - Doak had a great head start with the site given him.  Thus it would be equally obvious that if we say Hanse created a comparable course, then question 3 goes to him... or does it?  I guess it's not that simple.

I suppose I agree, the purpose of this site ought to be to discuss question 3, and that makes for a great discussion indeed re these two courses as it is surely NOT as simple as I make it.

I just can't get around always answering the other two questions in any comparison...

And one way or another, for me Applebrook IS in the same league as Pacific Dunes.  I guess it just depends on how one defines "league".

I loved and enjoyed both courses.  That puts them in the same league for me.

The rest I leave to greater experts like you and Rich!

TH


Mike_Cirba

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2001, 05:07:00 PM »
Rich,

Are you really telling me that I can save my plane fare next year and skip the planned trip to Bandon?  

Actually, I'm really glad that everyone enjoyed and admired the work of Gil and crew at Applebrook.  There is a LOT there to be enjoyed and I think you'd have to say that my criticisms are comparatively minor.

However, I also believe that the devil is in the details, and there are a few out there that perhaps need some further consideration.  And Pat Mucci's correct...that's why a Hugh Wilson and William Flynn made significant changes to Merion a decade after it opened.  Other examples of similar re-work abound, from Ross at Pinehurst to RTJ Sr. at The Dunes.

That is also why thoughtful analysis and criticism is important.  Even if 90% is laudatory, I have the sense that the best architects are concerned to hear about the other 10% at least as much.

Doc Mackenzie was troubled when he heard no criticism of Cypress Point and wondered what the heck he had done wrong.  I think that's the type of open-minded attitude that our present generation of top architects have as well.    


TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2001, 05:34:00 PM »
MikeC:

Don't cancel your trip. By all means go to Bandon Oregon. Your own opinion is the ultimate arbiter!


THuckaby2

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »
Mike - hell yes, get ye ass to Bandon and quick - I hear the hordes are descending.

It's a strange comparison, kinda apples and oranges like TEPaul said.  Still, fun to be able to talk about...

And one way or the other, make no mistake here either - PD is a GREAT course too.

Just promise me one thing:  if you do go, give me plenty of notice.  That would be one great course for us to move to the 19th hole of our match on!

TH


ForkaB

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2001, 05:46:00 PM »
TomH

To paraphrase Judge Smails, you're no slouch.  I couldn't have explained my position better.

TomP

My viewpoint is strongly influenced (biased?) by the fact that I have played a huge amount of seaside golf, links and otherwise--well over 500 rounds on pure links courses and another 500 or so on non-linksland ocean-fronted courses.  By contrast, I'd guess that I've played less than 500 rounds on inland courses, and most of those rounds have been on tracks of relatively modest pedigree.

So, when I see some great architecture on an inland course it's a relatively novel experience for me and I react (overreact?) accordingly.  Conversely, when I see some great architecture on a seaside course, my frame of reference is so much larger and contains so many world-class exemplars that I am more inclined to make comparisons which others with a lesser volume of relevant experience might not make.

As TomH correctly notes, all I really said was that I thought that the architecture of Applebrook was in roughly the same class as Pacific and Bandon Dunes.  I'll stick by that judgement, for the time being.

Rich

BTW, despite the conventional wisdom, I'm not at all sure that Tom Doak got the best land at Bandon.  The inland Painswickian holes (1,2,17,18) are not prime golfing land, IMHO, and I think Doak did great things with what he was given there.  The flatland bits of the property (3, 12, 15) are nothing special, and I would even argue that the land on which seaside bits of the course was built is inferior for golfing purposes to a number of other properties, such as Pebble Beach, Ballybunion, Cypress, and Turnberry.  Or, even the land on which Bandon Dunes was built..........


TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2001, 06:35:00 PM »
Rich:

I understand completely what you're saying and where you're coming from on linksland vs inland golf and their courses. Your experience and even bias that way is an important one to this site.

I have no real experience and not much knowledge of real linksland golf and what I saw of it this summer did underscore for me the vast differences from the golf most Americans play and the courses they play on.

I really did see at Portrush and County Down what links golf is all about! It's so much more than a golfer up against a golf course--which is the majority of American golf. It's more a golfer against the golf course and many other elements and things--even himself in the framework of how he responds to those other things. There is wind and stuff in American golf but it's much more just technical execution in a more static atmosphere!

I like both a lot but even at this point I don't really know how I would respond to a steady diet of links golf and I'm reminded and also fascinated with the response to American golf from linksland golfers who actually seem to revel in the atmosphere of American golf--at least they seem to for a time. I'm reminded of the reaction to Pine Valley of the Walker Cup team of the late 1980s. I admire the work of a really good architect, but I think I admire more really good golfing ground that not even the best architect in history could come close to conjuring up, whether it's here or over there!


BillV

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2001, 04:26:00 AM »
I played it finally and I really liked it a lot.  It is quite different from Inniscrone.  This will be a real winner and the nearly full membership belies that fact already.  

It is a site that I can really love with the vastness of the openness.  The vistas from hole to hole of most of the course (14 holes) is just what I like to see.  The green compleses are very challenging, lots of internal contours and generally quite small.  The openness of hte tee ball generally keeps things  moving very well and in spite of the prevalent wind and openness, the pace can keep moving very well.

I'll have to digest it a bit as there is a lot going on.  It is a very worthy modern course with a real classic feel to it.

Just as I commented earlier this year on Beechtree, the change from the wide open spaces to the treed holes is not my favorite thing, but maybe the best green on hte course is the 15th tucked off into the corner maybe call the hole Babe-in-the-Woods.  

#2,3,5,11,12,13,14 are my most favorite holes.  And 2 and 13 must be the best of the lot as they yielded birdie.  Mark Fine played with me too, so expect him to comment also.

I have to say that the total green to tee walk was the shortest of a modern course that i have seen, a real plus.

Congratulations Gil, Bill, Rodney, Jim et al with a real winner.  More later, no time today ofr extended discourse.


Bill_Spellman

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2001, 07:38:00 PM »
Tommy N.
The lost bunkers from Merion have been lifted and set down at Applebrook. I walked a little of the course on Saturday And it was the most noticeable aspect of the course IMO. I can't wait to play it. Hanse and Kittleman did a great job with some of the details. I'm not sure exactly what roll Bill K. plays but his influence was there.

Mike_Cirba

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2001, 07:52:00 PM »
Bill Spellman,

That's a great point you make about the "lost bunkers" at Merion perhaps having a new home at Applebrook.

And you are quite observant, as well...my understanding is that Bill Kittleman put in enormous time, attention, and energy into many of the bunker complexes at Applebrook, and it shows clearly in the fabulous results.

While we played Applebrook, Rich Goodale noted the stark differences (we had played Merion East two days earlier) in the bunkering styles, and while I won't repeat what he said to me, I would ask him to weigh in if he's reading.  


ForkaB

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2001, 08:10:00 AM »
Mike

I think I said something to the effect that Bill Kittleman is a true artist and craftsman, and it is a shame that there is no evidence of this craft or this artistry remaining at Merion East.  Or, did I say something less politic?


Mike_Cirba

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2001, 09:33:00 AM »
Rich,

That's close enough paraphrasing for a family show.