[Mark_Rowlinson]

The 3rd hole at Conwy is a 350-yard par 4 playing more or less straight. But there used to be a tee 30 or 40 yards to the left, so that, while the hole was much the same length, the hole became a left-hand dog-leg semi-blind over a dune and, beyond that, a depression. It was a much more exciting hole from there. Sadly the tee had to be closed as too many pushed shots were in danger of killing walkers on the coastal path running to the right of the fairway.

I can see that there are handicapping issues, as well as cost and space implications, but are there courses where alternative tees are placed on either side of the fairway, calling for a different shape of shot from each? Does this idea compromise the architecture?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark I think if this can be incorporated into a design it is a good thing for two reasons, as you say it creates interest to the hole calling for a different tee shot but also it can help by diverting traffic off the previous green in a different direction, this helps save on compaction and the associated turf problems by diverting the feet somewhere else causing less concentration on the traditional wak offs. This may be less of an issue in the US but its very real here in the UK when we tee up 365 days per year half of which are under unpleasant skies. I think aternative tees in the winter moving some holes dramatically forward but perhaps retaining a strong length on other holes is a great winter idea that is not overly costly and can really add a bit of spice into a golf course. A club building their own new tee (200 sq yards) could probably do so for £2000 if you built a few I am sure the cost coud be reduced on that as well.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Adrian, There a couple of winter tees at Royal Troon which make a huge difference. The 2nd in winter is played from a tee on the left, turning the hole into a left-handed dog-leg. It's quite a nice hole played that way with the bunkers brought into play in a different way. The 15th has a winter tee to the left of the 14th green, whereas the summer tees are to the right. For the most recent Open a new tee was built on the line of the winter tee but much further back. At Birkdale the 7th championship and visitors' tees are to one side or the other of the 6th green. Unfortunately the hole is set up in such a way that it only plays properly from the championship tee. The angles don't work from the other side. In winter Delamere Forest often play their 15th hole as a par 3 from a tee set on top of the bank over which you tee off blind in summer, because the landing area is prone to dampness. To my taste it is a far superior hole as a par 3, but then you get two consecutive par 3s....

Of course there are many 9-hole courses on which alternative tees can give different angles or lengths on particular holes when they are played for the second time. But it is my observation that in most cases one tee is far preferable to the other.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Tees from differing angles are a great idea, if only you can get the golf course to use them appropriately.  Many clubs feel the need to have an "official" men's tee from which the course is measured and rated and sloped, and then there is some pressure not to use the alternate tee.

The idea works best on heathland courses where there is no extra rough to maintain in playing from different angles.  It works least well on wooded courses, where you would almost certainly have to clear a wider area to accommodate both tees, and then maintain grass in the added cleared areas.  It's somewhere in between on parkland sites ... it probably adds a little bit of area that has to be maintained rough instead of unmaintained rough, in order to minimize lost balls.

[Tim Nugent]

Mark, from Adrian's variety point of view, sure -100%, just adds a bit more maintenance but not much as youwould let one tee "rest" and end up with healthier turf overall.  But from a safety point of view, I'd say no.  You can't control who would play  from where if they were both open at the same time.

[Scott Warren]

Mark,

I made some images a few months back with the intention of starting a thread about this topic, but never got to it.

It creates huge interest, I think. It seems to me to work well on par threes and on two-shotters where there is a good risk/reward element, such as a landform or hazard to be carried.

These are some that I think are done well and allow the hole to provide varying challenges depending on the tee of the day.

From top:
8th at Deal
4th at Deal
13th at NSWGC
14th at Trevose

[Sean_A]

mark

I go on about width with tees without changing yardage much all the time.  Burnham is the best example of this I know of.  Even at Burnham there are loads more tees which could be built and I believe some should be.  Burnham can get away with width tees because there is a huge dune ridge which is not used for the routing.  I recall the first time I really gave this idea any thought was seeing Tobacco Road's 6th.  Beau Desert also does very well width tees.  I love the idea and can't understand why it isn't more often.  Perhaps it is down to tees being focused on adding yards for so long that folks forgot how alternate angles can just as easily work for "back tees".

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean you are right B & B do this very well and at every opportunity,alas there is no real opportunity at most of the holes. The easiest way you could maximise it would be the 9 out 9 in with plenty of space, as soon as you change the routing back at 180 degrees its hard to get the same benifits.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott W:

I like three of your examples, but not so much the first one.  I'm sure the variety of angle is nice to have, but I'm not sure I would want to walk another 75 yards to change it.

[JESII]

I think it suggests a flaw in the fairway and green features if a different tee angle could improve the hole...surely one of the tees provides a better hole, so the other one would simply be variety for the sake of variety...which may be of value to some, but not me.
 

[Sean_A]

I think it suggests a flaw in the fairway and green features if a different tee angle could improve the hole...surely one of the tees provides a better hole, so the other one would simply be variety for the sake of variety...which may be of value to some, but not me.
 

Jim

"a better hole" is a wide open concept.  My first question would be better for who? 

I don't follow your logic.

Ciao

[JESII]

Better for the players playing that/those specific tee(s).

Let's say you have a standard good par 4, isn't there one particular tee position that maximizes the features of the hole?

[Sean_A]

Better for the players playing that/those specific tee(s).

Let's say you have a standard good par 4, isn't there one particular tee position that maximizes the features of the hole?

Jim

I am not sure what "maximizes" means.  Say it is water.  Is maximizing going straight over the water, at an angle or playing down the side?   

Here is an example.  Burnhams 8th is a par 5 with prevailing wind quartering from the left.  The hole can be played either from the shore side (left of the 7th green) creating a dogleg left with hidden bunkers down the left and water right.  Or, you can play the right tee which is a sort of dogleg right over the water with full view bunkering down left.  The right tee extends much further back for the flat bellies which can bring water seriously into play.  From the forward tee, the water is always in play for the lesser golfer.  The tees have to be at least 100 yards apart.  Two entirely different tees shots are on offer - I couldn't say one is better than the other.   I do know from a flow PoV, creating a dogleg right differentiates itself from the 7th.  I couldn't say which is a better hole or even which one I prefer.  The is the most extreme example at Burnham, but I reckon there are a half dozen others which create different holes and picking which is best is anybody's guess. 

Ciao

[Lyne Morrison]

Mark - a par 3,  but Kingsley #9 has a southern and western set of tees that are intriguing.

Tim Berts thread is here: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37381.msg787541.html#msg787541.

A couple of images from the discussion.


The intimidating view from the South tee


The less intimidating (??) view from the West tee.


Jim, I would have thought that in the right situation variety of tee angle isnt such a bad thing - in fact with a favourable set of circumstances it would provide added interest to a hole.

Cheers - Lyne

[Michael Taylor]

Mark,

I made some images a few months back with the intention of starting a thread about this topic, but never got to it.

It creates huge interest, I think. It seems to me to work well on par threes and on two-shotters where there is a good risk/reward element, such as a landform or hazard to be carried.

These are some that I think are done well and allow the hole to provide varying challenges depending on the tee of the day.

From top:
8th at Deal
4th at Deal
13th at NSWGC
14th at Trevose

Your thinking of the 14th at NSWGC, Scott. And most people disagree with me, but I believe it's an easier hole from the lower tee. And one rare hole that is tougher downwind!

Pup

[Matt MacIver]

I don't think using two radically different sets of tees based on width on a great hole makes any sense - it's a great hole due in part to where the tees are. 

But there are precious few great holes, so I'm a big believer in using width, and length, to spice up avg. to below holes in the name of variety. 

Last year I experimented with playing different tees to mix up each hole's length but still avg out to a 6600 yardage.  This year I plan on teeing it up outside certain tee boxes to see where the better (read: more fun) angles are. 

[Jud_T]

The best example I've seen of this is the Dunes club in Michigan..

[Jamie Barber]

Prince's Shore 9 has a couple of holes with tees either side of the preceeding the green. The 5th in particular plays either as a straight hole from the left tee with a forced carry to the fairway, or as a slightly shorter, slight dogleg right from the right tee, bringing the right hand rough and bunkers more in play. This hole follows the line of the original 18th to the original 18th green, in front of the now derelict old clubhouse (although the tee then was even further right than the current right hand tee). Sean Arble described it as a "flying V" fairway. Personally I prefer the left tee, but we almost always play from the right one.

A couple of the other holes have extra tee which change the angles significantly too (2nd, 4th and 6th on Shore and 6th on Himalayas), but these are more about providing extra length from the medal/championship tees.

[Scott Warren]

Your thinking of the 14th at NSWGC, Scott. And most people disagree with me, but I believe it's an easier hole from the lower tee. And one rare hole that is tougher downwind!

Pup

Indeed I am. Good pick-up.

[Jeff_Brauer]

All valid comments. It is really rare for two angles to play equally well for the same hole, similar to how double fw holes usually end up getting played one way or the other far too often.  

To start, it probably should be a down or upwind hole instead of a crosswind hole, and it usually requires fairly flat or gently rolling ground.  Lastly, it may involve a double or wide fw to make it almost two separate holes in the same corridor.

That said, I always look for opportunities to provide a wide or double tee to change up the angle for pure variety.  te 10th at Fortune Bay features double tees and was supposed to have a rock outcropping dividing a wide fw.  However, I learned that dynamite is not a particularly precision grading implement, and it probably plays a bit better from the right.....

I put in double tees on the 16th at my Weeks Park remodel a few years back, mostly because I had the space to fill up and it was a somewhat unique feature. I think the hole plays a bit better from the right side.

Lastly, I had a muni operator suggest that on a high play course, EVERY tee ought to have the cart path run down the middle with alternate tees on both sides.  It made the tee space suitably larger, and also reduced the walk up traffic on the banks between tee and path to every other day, which reduced compaction and wear.

[JESII]

Sean,

I certainly can't voice an opinion on that particular hole...but your comment about flow (if we were to isolate FLOW as the only factor) would suggest that the right tee is better than the left for all, or the most, golfers and therefore each day the left tee is used the course is that very slight bit less good.  Just trying to explain where I am coming from.

Jim, I would have thought that in the right situation variety of tee angle isnt such a bad thing - in fact with a favourable set of circumstances it would provide added interest to a hole.

Cheers - Lyne

Lyne,

Perhaps, but in my experience there is always one best tee position for the features on the ground and other variable circumstances like weather and course condition...otherwise I see it as variety for variety's sake which I don't see the value of.

I'm not saying variety for variety's sake is a bad thing at all, I just don't see how it could be a positive factor for the whole experience.

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