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Ran Morrissett

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Engineers CC course profile is posted
« on: March 02, 2004, 09:00:27 AM »
How many courses have you ever considered to be the best in the world? Three? Five? I would guess less than ten at any rate with the point being that it is a darn small number. All the courses would certainly be household names.

Wind the clock back seventy plus years and many of those very same courses like Oakmont, Merion, Pine Valley, NGLA, The Old Course would still be on the list. In addition, perhaps a Myopia Hunt and Westward Ho! might sneak in as well. And according to some quotes found by Tom MacWood, Engineers Country Club on Long Island in the 1920s was considered among the world's very best, if not THE best.

Herbert Strong was its architect and his features were bold and pronounced. Yet, this and that often happens to features/courses that are strikingly unique (George Thomas's double fairways that functioned so well or Augusta's lack of bunkers/rough/trees are a thing of the past for instance) and such is the case with Engineers. Still, the course of today remains loaded with personality.

Like William Langford, more attention needs to be paid to Strong's work. Along with the praise that would ensue, clubs fortunate enough to possess a design of his would be all the more appreciative of what they have. Tom MacWood has long trumpeted Strong and his work and Tom was kind enough to provide numerous black and white photos and quotes about Engineers from its heyday - see what you think.  

Cheers,

BCrosby

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Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2004, 09:42:10 AM »
Ran -

Terrific piece on Engineers.

Herb Strong's genius has been unsung for much too long. His course at Ponte Vedra is still a delight to play, notwithstanding many changes.

Did he only design the four or five courses mentioned in your piece?

Bob

P.S. Minor point: I think "fozler" should be spelled "foozler".

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2004, 11:02:03 AM »
FYI, here's the aerial of Engineers, which was AOTD #314:

A quote from SPDB from the AOTD thread of Engineers:

"The remains of the [2 or 20] hole can be seen in the upper
right.  Last I heard Trip Davis was restoring it, but not sure if
that is done, still in the works, or a figment of my memory."


Mike_Sweeney

Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2004, 12:02:12 PM »
Ran,

My goodness, an actual golfcourse on the discussion group ! Where is this course rated ?  ;)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 12:02:39 PM by Mike_Sweeney »

GeoffreyC

Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2004, 12:02:30 PM »
Ran

As usual, your course profiles are a highlight of this site.

Engineers is one hell of a bold design.  Hard to get bored with greens and fairway contours and stances at this course!

Interesting that Strong was a pro at Apawamis as Engineers seems to be very similar in design.  The influence there seems obvious to me. Did Strong originally design Metropolis (White Plains, NY) as well?  Most say Tillinghast but I believe Strong did the routing and original design and Tillinghast came later.

Is there anything new with regard to some restoration work at the club.  I recall Gil Hanse did a Master Plan.

Thanks again for the great review.

NAF

Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2004, 01:43:10 PM »
The club's website also has some info:

http://www.engineerscc.com/overview.htm

though not even in close to the same leaque as what Ran and Tom MacWood have produced here.

George Pazin

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Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2004, 02:12:01 PM »
Thanks for sharing this with us. The course profiles remain the strongest part of this special site.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2004, 06:21:40 PM »
Fantastic write up on Engineers, Ran and Tom! Thanks.

What's the status of the course these days, in terms of recent work done? Have there been any recent restorative-based efforts? And if so, who orchestrated them? (If I recall correctly, Gil Hanse was once involved with the club. I think that relationship was terminated though.)

P.S. Place Toronto's Lakeview on the list of Strong-designed courses that've been undermined over time. Lakeview's immediately across the road from Toronto GC (Colt). The course hosted a Canadian Open or two during the early 1930s, I believe. Sadly, if you visited today, you wouldn't be impressed. The course is a muni now, and so many changes were made over the years.

RIP, Lakeview. There's absolutely no opportunity for reclamation there.
jeffmingay.com

SPDB

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Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2004, 09:13:33 PM »
Ran -
As always, terrific write-up. The historical pictures and
description only enhance the reviews, and thanks should
be given to Tom MacWood as well.
As Scott noted above, Tripp Davis did indeed
do work at the club, most notably on the 2 and 20 hole,
featured in the review. Here is a pic pre-mid construction:

« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 09:14:07 PM by SPDB »

T_MacWood

Re:Engineers CC course profile is posted
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2004, 10:24:09 PM »
Ran
Well done.

Strong wasn't as prolific as some of his contemporaries, but he did design more than few courses. According to Cornish & Whitten spent a lot of time on site, which might explain his limited output.

It is interesting to note which courses Strong listed on his advertisements, and the order.

Engineers'
Inwood
Manoir Richelieu
Lakeview
Lakewood (Fl)
Canterbury
Aviation (Mi)
Saucon Valley-Old
Nassau
Rogers Forge (Md)

Engineers' hosted two major championships in its first few years. He revamped Inwood in the teens and it hosted the PGA and US Open in '21 and '23. Lakeview was built in 1920 and hosted the Canadian Open in '23.

Ponte Vedra wasn't listed because it was built later (in the late 20's), it was to host the 1939 Ryder Cup, unfortunately the competition was cancelled due to the War.

Metropolis is a mystery to me. Strong's name is often associated with the design of the course. The date is usually listed as 1904. My first thought was that had to be mistake...the early date. Then after learning Strong was based at Apawamis early on, I thought maybe the date is right. But I have later learned he did not come to the US until 1906. So his involvement must have been later. The course is in fact very old, dating back to the turn of the century, it was the first golf course of the Century Club. Century sold the course to the new Metropolis in 1923 and the new club immediately announced they were interested in hosting championships. Who better to hire if that was your goal?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 10:26:02 PM by Tom MacWood »

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