[Neil Regan]

The hole is called Lightnin', because, the architect said, It would take a bolt from Jove to escape the biggest bunker on the course.

[A_Clay_Man]

Is the rough between the green and the bunker the most idiotic mow line in the game?

[Randy Van Sickle]

Is this the 17th at OHC?

[Neil Regan]

The picture is modified, there is no sand anymore.
The bunker has been gone for 70+ years (almost).
I will post the unmodified picture soon.
The hole is #17, but not OHC.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mohansic ?

[Neil Regan]

Mohansic, smansic.

[Neil Regan]

This is the unadjusted picture. No sand now, but the pit remains. It was the largest bunker on the course.

[Mike_Sweeney]

And the answer is ?

[Gene Greco]

13 Winged Foot West?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

I would agree that it's Wiinged Foot, but not # 13 on the west.

It looks more like # 17 on the East, or possibly # 11.


A Clayman,

Mowing lines are probably the single most neglected features on golf courses.  And, in many cases, the shifting of these lines through benign neglect or member interference has adversely altered the play of many a hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

If this isn't the 17th at WFE it's a dead ringer. I only had occasion to play there one time but I remember the hole well.
The caddie gave a perfect read and I walked away with a par, feeling mighty happy too!

I don't think the bunker would have added much difficulty to the hole, it's stout as is and isn't the line of the rough less important sans bunker? When did the bunker get grassed over? Was it in the same time frame as AWT's work for the PGA or much later?  

[Joel_Stewart]

Mowing lines are probably the single most neglected features on golf courses.  And, in many cases, the shifting of these lines through benign neglect or member interference has adversely altered the play of many a hole.

There can be many reasons for mowing lines to change, starting first with tree lines and irigation.  Couple that with changing equipment, changing the staff, changing the super or green committees.  On a championship course, tournaments and tightning the rough back and forth and all of a sudden its lost.  Is their ever a correct rough line and how is it determined is something I'm wrestling with?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

While many things change, the original architectural intent and integrity remain, and only need to be rediscovered and reclaimed.

Early aerials and other photos can provide the key.

[Neil Regan]

Yes, it is Winged Foot East, #17.
Tillinghast removed the bunker before 1929. There was also a cross bunker at the top of the fairway about 90 yards from the green. That was removed in 1930 something.

The greenside bunker was restored for a short time in 1958.

The hole is regarded by many golfers as the single most difficult birdie at Winged Foot. After the PGA of 1997, Davis Love and Justin Leonard played a Wonderful World of Golf match on the East Course. Davis was one up after 16. Leonard missed the green in a very difficult spot, Love had a putt from a more difficult spot. Davis three-putted, Justin got his 3, and the match ended in a draw.
  A few years later, I asked Davis to name his favorite hole at Winged Foot. His answer was 17 East.

[RJ_Daley]

I've never been on a Tillinghast course, and so I wouldn't know if this is correct.  But it just seems to me that the sand in the bunker should be on the flat, and the turf should be grown up the face of the upslope into the green.  The green should be mowed out to the edge where the caddie is standing.  Why on earth would Tillie or anyone for that matter want to try to flash the sand up that steep of an embankment to the green?  Am I wrong on this?  Did Tillie ever spec a design to have that steep of a sand bunker face as nregan depicts?

PS: Upon looking through the trilogy of Tillie books by Wolffe and Trebus, there is no way Tillie designed the sand as nregan suggests...

[Jim_Kennedy]

RJ,
Look at the photos of WFW in the "Courses" section and you will see some steeply flashed bunkering. Here are a few from the east course.

 

[GeoffreyC]

Neil

How recently was that photo taken? I recognized the pushed up greens as Winged Foot almost immediately, however, the absence of pine trees and trees in general threw me off.  I have not been to Winged Foot in several years.  The reclaimed vistas look great!

[RJ_Daley]

Jim and Neil, on page 25 of "The Course Beautiful" on the Winged Foot drawing by Tillie, doesn't it seem he uses a dark broad line to indicate where he wants turfed banks or slopes?  I see that he really has two styles of bunkers fro picutres of WF courses; the flashed-up sand, usually with a tongue or grass ramp, and the more flatish with turfed bank.  I think it depends on the elevation up to a green.  

In this case of lightening, maybe he did have it flashed too high as Neil describes that the sand was removed prior to 1929 and the fairway bunker taken out in 1930.   Of the bunkers I do find in various books showing Tillie's work, it seems the flashed up ones, have more of a retaining upper lip and are graded to channel drainage around them.  If he had tried to flash the one up as the first picture on this thread painted in with sand by Neil, any rain would have washed right down disasterously.  Even if he only had it flashed up about 1/2 way up the slope to the green, it looks like it would have been a drianage nightmare.   Maybe that was what prompted him to remove the sand in the first place.  I really think it could be as great a hole or even greater with a flat bunker meandering along the bottom of what is now the grass pit.  But obviously, from the Love and Leonard's comments offered above, it is darn good as a grass bunker.  

I am just curious as to what the rest of you all thing would be or is the best design here.  Do you like the first painted in by Neil as flashed all the way up the bank.  Do you like it as a turf bunker?  Or would you like to see a flatish bunker with turfed bank?  I'm voting for the last...

[Neil Regan]

Another version of Lightnin':


And 13 East as it is today, for comparison:

[rospen]

 8)Nregan, those are great pics of the east course. Any chance of posting more? It is very hard to find decent pics of this great course.

[A_Clay_Man]

JimK, You asked about the mow-line without the bunker; I'd argue it is still moi importante. Halting, or stifleing the roll of the ball is IMO not in keeping with core principles. Unpredictability being the obvious loser, with roll stopping rough.

Perhaps someone could digi-up Dick's version with the grass wall sandy bottom?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
I just feel that a green built more like a platform with steep sides doesn't necessarily have to be mown out like a green that slopes down at the sides.
A ball rolling over the side of a sloping green, ala #2 at Pinehurst, offers choices for recovery. You can putt, chip or pitch.      
A ball that just rolls over the steep edge of a platform green would never leave much other than a pitch shot back to the surface if the banks were mowed low. Leave the banks at rough height, mow them to the edge and slow rollers will either hang up a couple of feet down the side or nestle up against the rough at the edge.
My tortured view of architecture says mowing it out to the edge would be more appropiate if the bunker was there. It doesn't make much sense to add the bunker if the grass is going to stop a ball from running into it.

[A_Clay_Man]

Jim- We agree that with the bunker, low-mow is the way to go. Otherwise why have it? But without the bunker and just a steep grass wall, I see the same excitement and uncertainty of a ball rolling close to the edge and whether or not it would have the impetus to roll all the way, or part way, down to the bottom. With the rough stopping that potential for uncertain fate, the subsequent shot is usually that short chop shot chip, that after awhile becomes too repetitious. But when its low cut grass, I have the full palete of shots I have the imagination to execute. Including that chop shot chip.

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