[mark chalfant]

Ive  heard  good things  about both of these

Flynn courses.   Im  curious for those who have seen both

if  they have  a  preference.

When replying, please mention a few  reasons and try to

steer clear of  "tree  issues" when choosing one or the other

Thanks  for  your  thoughts


Mark

[TEPaul]

I'd put Lancaster in Flynn's top 5, maybe even top 3 and Manufacturers maybe in his top 20 but I've always liked Manny's---it's just fun to play. Lancaster is a very interesting routing, a more difficult course than Mannys with a wide variety of holes and types of holes but so is Manny's actually. Manny's has a couple of holes that might be a bit of a pushover for the better player but so what? All Lancaster's holes have something about them that can be a challenge and can catch you up. Both are sort of classic Flynn routings which just sort of roll around the site and its topography in all kinds of different and interesting ways. Both courses show Flynn basically to be a router unlike any other I know of.

Ironically, both these courses have always had real severe problems with flooding on some holes as both have rather dangerous water courses that flow right through them! If both those clubs would give me the money they've had to spend over the years to correct water and water damage problems I'd be in whiskey money and hog heaven for the rest of my days and so would everyone else on this website!  

[Jason Mandel]

Both Courses are very good, but I have to say that Lancaster is my favorite Flynn that I have played in the greater Philadelphia region.

I love everything about the place.  They have been nice enough to host the PA AM and OPen in the past few years and watching some of the state's best play there has been really interesting.

Lancaster has a bunch of things that make it so great.

1st.  The greens:  The greens at Lancaster are some of Flynn's best with out a doubt. Most of them don't look like they have too much doing but boy when they get them fast they are scary as hell, don't even think about getting behind some of them.  

2. Great Mix of holes: If there's one thing about Flynn courses that could be criticized, I would say its that alot of his courses look a like, and they are easily identifiable.  Well, I would say this is where Flynn differes at Lancaster.  The 1st nine at lancaster is some of the most unique flynn i have seen.  It starts out simply enough with a tree lined par 4, but then 11 is one of the BEST short par fours I have ever played.  I wish I had a picture of this hole, just a short dog leg left, with the green sitting on the top of a hill, its tough to describe but this little hole can be a devil!    I think the property really dictated why the course is so good, the routing is so good I just love it, 16 is a par 5 that crosses over a huge river and offeres so great risk reward options as there is OB on the left of the hole, a river on the right, and then a small pond just to the right, 17 reminds me a lot of 14 at Rolling Green with the big bridge to a green that slopes hard from back to front.

All in all, lancaster has so many good holes.  

Manny's is a fun place as well, it has some very good holes, some unique holes as well, but I just think lancaster has so much more character to the course.  I don't think the greens at Manny's are as good as many of flynn's, certainly not as good as Rolling Greeen, Huntingdon Valley, or Lancaster.  

Jim Furyk grew up playing Lancaster a lot, this is where his high school played, my brother once ran into him at the brittish open, and mentioned to him how he was playing in the pa am of lancaster, Furyk spoke so fondly of the place and was nice enough to give him a hole by hole description of how to play each hole, even telling him what to hit off the tee, etc.  

i know gil hanse did a great deal of bunker restoration at Lancsater, and I had never seen the place before it was done, but the bunkers look absolutely fantastic.

Hope this helps, if you have any more specific questions feel free to ask, I know the post was as detailed oriented as you may have liked, but I hope it conveys to you how much I love the course.

Jason Mandel

[mark chalfant]

   Tom and  Jason,

Thanks for your help on these Flynn courses, it would
be  good to hear  from others.



    Jason,
 1.   please  tell us  about some of  your  favorite par fours at

Mannies.    Is a stream a factor on some holes there ?

  2.   At   Lancaster,  are  the  3 nine groups  of equal  quality

or  is  one  nine  a bit less interesting ?


   3.  any thoughts on   Lehigh.


Thanks for your help  !

mark


 

[TEPaul]

Jason:

It looks like you have some of the holes at Lancaster reversed on the nines. The 11 and 16 you're describing are #2 and #7. Those holes across the river are later additions too when the club lost some holes on the clubhouse side of the river when they sold them off for real estate and used the land where a few were for tennis courts or whatever to the left of the driveway. Flynn did design those holes on the other side of the river though. Then a few of those holes down on the river had such dire flooding problem the club had to build what they called the "Sunset Six" on the other side of the clubhouse where the new range is.

[Jason Mandel]

Tom,

You are right, I must have reversed the nines, part of the problem was the last time I was there, I was watching my brother in the PA Open, and they switch the nines for the first two days and I got confused. So you are saying that these holes were not part of the original routing of the course,  that devilish dog leg right short par 4, i think it was number 4, if that is correct, where you can hit anything to a bi-sected fairway, pretty much though it is just to set up your second shot to a two-tier green, that 2nd shot is one of my favorite 2nd shotter's in the philly area.  if the pin is up you have to be deadly acurate to get it on the right tier, and not go above the pin, because if you do its almost a sure 3-putt.  if you are short of the pin and the pin is up front, you will be back in the creek.   then the next hole, number 5, after you hit a tee shot hopefully to the top of the hill, your second shot is severly downhill into an amphitheater like setting, another great 2nd shot hole.  

Mark,

I can't really comment as to the third nine as I have never seen it nor played it, I don't know if it was designed by Flynn or not, although I have a feeling it was not.  The original 18 are the only that have ever been used in PA Golf Events.  

As far as Manny's goes.  Again, Tom Paul may be able this better than, but I remember Mannies as having a distinct creek that goes across the property, and often times, just short of the hole.  A good example of this is number 10, a mid-lenght short par 4 where the 2nd shot must carry a creek just short of the green.  The same can be said for number 2, which is a dog-leg left again with a creek just short of the green that needs to be carried.  

As far as strong par 4's go, while number 1 is certainly one of the most exciting tee shots in the Philly Area, maybe 2nd only to Aronimink as you stand up by the club house and hit to a fairway that is severely downhill, the hole frankly isn't that strong, certainly not nearly as tough as number 1 at Aronimink.

Number 2, which I described above was one of the stronger par 4's I remember.  I also remember #3 being an extrememly tough hole, I am almost certain it was a par 4, though I may be wrong and it may be a par 5.   I think it is something like 420 uphill to a strong green.  

On the back side a couple of par 4's that come to mind as being particularily strong are 16, which is the 2nd time we see the quarry on the course.  This hole is a slight dog leg right if I recall correctly, with the quarry coming into play off the tee, the quarry is playable, although if you find yourself in it, it is certainly no fun.  

17 comes into mind as being one of the better holes as well.  It is a very short hole, can't be much more than 330-340.  It is a dog leg left, with the creek coming into play again, just short of the green, which is elevated.  It is a farily easy hole from tee to green if you hit  it in the center or right side of the fairway, if you hit it in the left side you can not go for the green, you are blocked by a single large tree, it is rather annoying, but it really puts demands on the tee shot to be in the right place. If not you are forced to chip out and lay up.

The 18th hole is one that is interesting.  It can be played as either a par 4, or par 5.  Although I have never seen it played as a par 5, which I believe is the way flynn designed it.  If you play it as a par 4 it is a mid length par 4, slight dog leg left.  There is a forrest on the right that needs to be avoided.  However, if it is played as a par 5, it probably plays something like 500 yards, with the last 120 straight up hill.  I think it would be fun to play this orginial green, but I can certainly see the reason for the newer green. at the end of a round one would much rather take the ski lift trolley that is provided than walk up that mountain of a hill that the original 18th green sits atop.

I'm sure I've skipped over some of the par fours that are also good, just don't have  a clear picture of them right now.

The par 3's on the course are very good as well, and I think there are five of them?

Hope this helps,

Jason Mandel

[Adam_Messix]

Mark,

Lancaster, Manufacturers, and Lehigh are all excellent Flynn courses.  Tom Doak wrote a nice piece on Lancaster in his Gourmet's Choice in the Confidential Guide.  

I keep thinking that Lancaster is the longest 66 hundred and change golf course that I have ever played.  It just seemed liked there was one long par 4 after another.  Under further review however, there are several excellent short par fours.  The 4th, a drive over the creek and a pitch to a green perched atop a small hill, may be the best of the bunch.  My general impression of the Flynn holes at Lancaster is that it has one excellent hole after another that has a great flow to it despite having some steep gradiants to deal with.  The Silva holes across the river are nice addition to the property, but I wouldn't substitute it for the main 18.  

Manufacturers seems to be more uneven to me.  It has some excellent holes and some lesser holes.  The opener is a real attention grabber with it's big drop from tee to landing area, trying to see how far (or maybe how far off line) you can hit it.  The par 3s stood out to me, particularly the two excellent uphill par 3s at 6 and 11.  Flynn made really nice use out of the two quarries on 8 and 16.  The question I have is where the tee on the 18th hole was when the green on top of the hill was the only green.  From where the tee is currently located, the green on the hill makes for a killer par 4.  The best par 4 is #3 (pictured in the Confidential Guide)

Mark Fine wrote a nice piece on Lehigh in the "My Home Course" section.  The 11th hole was the subject of an interesting thread a couple of years ago.  I particularly liked the holes near the river (7, 11, 12, and 13)  However, the best hole is probably #10 with it's deceptive bunker short of the green.  

If given the choice of one, Lancaster is probably the choice, but I wouldn't be disappointed playing any of these three.

[Adam_Messix]

Jason,

I think Sandy Run comes into play in front of 2, 5, 10, and 17 at Manufacturers.  It looks like it can be a real problem during summer's like the most recent one.  

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I wouldn't add much to what Adam Messix said about Manufacturers except the green on top of the hill on #18 makes that hole a par 5 and it still is---extremely severe sloping green though. Ron Forse is about to launch into a restoration of Manufacturers. The 9th green has finally been softened as it was out of control for years. The same will happen to the 17th green. The trees on both #17 and #18 that could be considered "strategic" trees as you had to hit your tee ball right of them will come out or are now gone. The danger of flooding from the creek on #2 and #7 will probably always be real but they spent a lot of money in the last few years fixing damage and water problems there. I understand a good number of interior pine trees will come out, also a good thing.

Jason:

At Lancaster, those four holes you mentioned that sit across the river were the additions years ago by Flynn. Adam Messix is so right, in my opinion, that the individual holes of Lancaster are all just so interesting somehow in their own right and put them all together and they just offer an unbelievable diverse and varied mix making Lancaster all it is. I think the diverse topography at Lancaster is a bit more interesting than Manufacturer's although Manufacturers is certainly not lacking in that area. At Lancaster, anyway, Flynn made near perfect use of the topography and natural features of the property basically rolling all over it in every kind of way which in essence was his true routing genius. The holes swing a bit more at Lancaster, maybe a bit more right to left than the other way but not much more. #16 is, in my opinion, a really great little par 4 that's actually driveable but at great risk and the tee to green strategies on this hole work just beautifully with the bunkering arrangement on the tee shot a good case study in strategic architecture. This green is a Gordon redesign. Flynn's old green was on the hillside right up under the present 17th tee (making the old hole basically straight) and Gordon moved the green left and out to where it is now. I remember your brother at that State Open at Lancaster Jason. That was a pretty exciting Open for me as Terry Hertzog who was the pro at GMGC had finished well ahead of the final group with a really good final round although I know he thought he started too far back to win. The leader (forget his name now) had a 3 shot lead standing on #16 tee but bogied the last three holes. As I watched him bogie #17 I called the scoreboard and told them to find Terry and make sure he didn't take off and sure enough he got into a playoff with Mazza (just remembered his name) and beat him on the second go-round of sudden death on #18.

The third nine at Lancaster, as Adam said, is a Brian Silva addition of a couple of years ago. It's entirely different in look and feel from the original 18, very open, sort of linksy feeling and some good holes except #8 and #9 which are sort of shoehorned in or something and kinda screwed up holes! I looked at both those holes for about an hour and felt I figured out a way that could make them better but I forget what that was now.

[JSlonis]

Both courses are a couple of my favorites in the Philly area.

I've played Manufacturers quite a bit, but have only played Lancaster a few times.

I think under the direction of Ron Forse that the Manufacturer's restoration is really going to be something special.  The course is very good now and will greatly improve with some much needed tree removal.

One of my favorite holes: The 8th hole is a wonderful little par 3, about 110-120 slightly downhill to a punchbowl setting in a quarry. It's just a great cozy little hole.  As a group the par 3's are all very strong holes.  

As for Lancaster, the newer 3rd nine is rarely if ever even mentioned when guys talk about that course.  It is very different from the original 18.

[TEPaul]

I guess the primary reason for the new Silva nine built in the last couple of years is the club always did have that land out there but if they built that nine perhaps they could use it as well if those holes down on the river got damaged by flooding as they so often did. When that happened in the past the club would use those holes behind the clubhouse called the "Sunset Six" (I guess because they're on the western side of Lancaster C.C) which were built to get back up to 18 holes for when those river holes got clobbered. I even remember a state amateur there where those holes down on the river got clobbered just before the tournament and they had to use the "Sunset Six". I don't remember them that well except they were pretty blah holes. I think they hugely improved their practice facility in that area probably using some of those old "Sunset Six" holes.

[Dave_Miller]

Both are very, very good.  But my favorite Flynn Course in the Philly area remains Rolling Green.  But I guess I just answered a question that wasn't asked.  
Best,
Dave

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