Improving # 18 at Pebble Beach ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 18th fairway at Pebble Beach used to have a stand of pine trees in the middle of the fairway off the tee.

When the trees were removed and not replaced, would the 18th hole have become a better hole if a centerline bunker complex was inserted in the drive zone near the old tree complex ?

Would that have made the hole a more demanding, more interesting finishing hole ?

[RJ_Daley]

I think that is a good idea.  Sort of like a leven hole off the tee, but on a par 5 instead of a 4.

[A_Clay_Man]

Clearly the forced carry is a re-occurring motiff at Pebble beach. However, the trees don't create anywhere near the havoc, a bunker complex as proposed would reek on the majority of those fortunate to have corporate entertainment budgets spring for the 4 bills.

Looking at the old pictures, I believe they should not only return the two big cypress in the right center of the fairway, they should also return the smaller conifer along the edge of the wall. That would make it better, if that's possible.



Should we ask Chip what he thinks of that idea? Naw

[Brian_Gracely]

They mentioned on the CBS telecast today, and I heard it from my caddy in November, that they will be planting some new trees this spring.  They will be slightly further in the fairway that the previous trees.  

[TEPaul]

The tree in the middle of that fairway on #18 is sort of traditional right? If so put one back in there.

As an analogy should the trees behind the bunker complex in the middle of the fairway on Cypress's #17 be removed because the bunker might play better without them? They are sort of odd, I'll admit but they've always been there that way so leave the hole the way it is!

[Brian_Gracely]

TEPaul,

I believe the bunkers on #17 and #18 that used to be amongst the cypress trees are no longer there.  At least that's what the newer pictures show.

http://www.joanndost.com/com/detail.asp?SubCatID=69&offset=6&sku=cpgc-h17-01

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The trees on # 18 at Pebble were removed and replaced with fairway.  In addition, I believe bunkering was added on the right side, probably to catch balls headed out of bounds.

Thus strategy on the tee shot, the ability to execute, and lady luck were alll removed from the hole.

In addition, years ago, it was unheard of for anybody to hit that green in two.  Now, guys are doing it with 4-irons.

Picture if you will, a complex in the center of the fairway, similar to # 8 at NGLA, and the removal of the right side catch bunkers.  This would clearly return the risk/reward qualities of the tee shot, and maybe even accentuate them.

Presently, the hole appears to lack the additional challenge that the previous trees provided.

[Mark_Fine]

What was the original design intent?  That is generally a good question to ask before doing anything.  In the case of Pebble, it is not as easy to figure out the answer as the original design is much changed.  Also, you have to be carefull when "trying to improve" classic golf courses.  Too many classic courses have suffered because someone tried to do just that - improve them  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

I don't believe that catch bunkers designed to prevent balls from going out of bounds were part of the original design.

As to the age of the trees in the fairway, I don't know if they were original or added, but they certainly were an effective feature.

[A_Clay_Man]

The first bunker on the right (the older one) use to have that nagging tree issue, if found, on your next shot.  Poor placement of the new trees going in, will re-create a principle, I perceive as flawed.

[ChipOat]

I'll get back to you guys later on this.

The bunker idea has initial appeal.

The tree idea does not.

[Eric Johnson]

Pat,
Even before they were removed, there was fairway to the right of the two Pine trees.

The smaller Pine on the left edge of the hole was removed during the sea wall reconstruction-repair-remodel.

[A_Clay_Man]

EJ- Returning a tree on the left, would give the new bunker relavance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

EJ,

I was aware of that.
I think the centerline obstacle forced golfers to think about what was best for their game, and which was the lessor of the evils, the ocean, out of bounds or being blocked or impeded by the trees.

My thoughts were, that a centerline bunker scheme might make the hole more of a par 5, and return some thought and fear into the tee shot.

[Mike Benham]

I would like to see the trees not replanted and the fairway bunkers removed.  This change would open up the fairway, removing targets to aim at, confusing the golfer on the right line of play, inviting them, deceiving the golfer to cut off more of the left edge of the fairway.

Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I actually in this case like the trees better than a bunker. This is more and more a resort course. The trees can be played around and does not cause the mental stress that a bunker would for one off the tee. I really like to play a draw off the tree anyway. It made the tee shot fun.

[JakaB]

I doubt if I will ever play Pebble...but I will watch it on TV.  I want to see the possibility of a 6 for the leader and a 3 for the trailor....how will any leader ever make worse than par if there is no centerline or right side danger zone...the new bunker is a joke..the new tree placement by the green is a joke...first the resort players ruined the course to play and now the resort mentality of design is ruining the course to watch.  This hole should be the number one championship finish hole in golf...for the best players in the world.   Not a finish note on a Kenny G flute scrunch.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike Benham- There really is no need to open up the fairway, it is plenty wide. The opening to the green is also plenty wide. That is why I can disagree with Chip for oh these many years. The trees do not joke the hole as much as they frame the proper spots to play from.

The bunker on the outside of the dogleg is a travesty in gca. A Double penalty for taking the long road? I think it was Ross who abhored the use of said outside leg bunkers. I may be as wrong as a train wreck, but from my perspective, the first bunker was ill conceived. Likely for containment purposes, once the house that's beyond it was built. Now there's a second bunker complete with mounding, how yummmy!

Both par 5's on the back nine at Pebble have an inherent awkwardness about them. Not so much the hole, but how the hole should be played, and, how the golfer feels standing over both second shots. On 14, even with Ob on both sides, it is quite wide. Yet the feeling is very narrow. Same is true on the second at 18, the area is wide, but the ideal spot is narrow and requires touch and the right yardage. Usually no where near as far as any player thinks they should hit it. Those who opt for busting too much club and avoid the ocean, will likely have the stupid tree issue. Is that the trees fault? Is it the tree that was stupid? No, the player got in that position, he eats it in my book.