[Michael Dugger]

jakab,

What is your obsession with "resort".  Bandon Dunes is not Shadow Creek or some other CCFAD.

You walk, not ride.  The course is rugged, not cookie cutter.  

You are making a big mistake if you go to Rustic.

[JakaB]

What is your obsession with "resort".  Bandon Dunes is not Shadow Creek or some other CCFAD.

I want to be with the people not a bunch of golfers.

[THuckaby2]

"The food is better at Rustic Canyon."  But what about the meat loaf at Pacific Dunes?

So why not go all out and do a triangular routing - LAX / Coos Bay International / home?

JakaB has obviously not sampled THE VOLCANO.

But that doesn't matter, that's not really what this is about...

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Do both Barney. I did last year for KPII. Lax to Eugene and 2.5 hour drive to heaven.

[Norbert P]

Mike Cirba, Nice post.  And I trust you. Heck, you can date my sister.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Slag;

Thanks!

One of the things I've always loved about golf, and particularly golf at inspiring courses, is that at its best, one's emotions come naturally and instinctually to the fore.


 

[RJ_Daley]

Barney, what's your real angle here?  Are you by any chance trying to elicit a number of responses to show 'she who must be obeyed' that it is actually most rational to go to both the KPIII and while your out that way, get up to see PD because all these fellows can't be wrong?  I don't think the real JC just tosses up silly dillema questions like this without an ulterior motive.  Cripes, it can't be the cost in JakaB's case;  he looses more in putting contests on the practice green than this whole proposition will cost, would be my bet.

[JakaB]

R.J.,

One of the things that has held my interest in golf for now a double loop...is the ability to gamble for small amounts with great interest on the outcome.  I can only recall losing more than a greenfee at PD twice in my life.  Both a result of drastic pressing and an eagle for the bad guys at the most inopportune times...eagle pays 4 times the bet.   I really wish people would quit telling me just to go play them all because I can not affort to on either a financial or emotional basis.

I honestly don't think anyone on this board has the ability to articulate why a person with my tastes should go to one respected course over the other...they can tell me why they should go...they can tell me why everyone else should go...but bring it down to the specific and its all about image and marketing and just another regurgitation of the pre-said.  

[THuckaby2]

I honestly don't think anyone on this board has the ability to articulate why a person with my tastes should go to one respected course over the other...they can tell me why they should go...they can tell me why everyone else should go...but bring it down to the specific and its all about image and marketing and just another regurgitation of the pre-said.  

That is very true and very well said... well at least up to the last phrase anyway (I'm not sure if all of this is indeed regurtitation of the pre-said).  

Who can know the motivations of another golfer, for sure?  Who can know what really jazzes him and what he won't like, for sure?  Why is it assumed that some places are all things for all people?

It is a big beautiful world of golf, with room for one and all.  I just made that up.  

BTW jakab, if playing with people and not golfers jazzes you, and you want to see cityscapes... well... Rustic Canyon might not be your best bet in SoCal either.  I'd have to guess that given its very good reputation (#1 Best New Affordable by Golf Digest, on top of other honors), it gets its share of belt-notch-seekers.  It's also nowhere near any cityscape - it has a very definite beauty, but it's of the stark rural variety, especially post-fire...

No, I was thinking about this more and what you really need to do is play Rancho Park.  It's right there in the Century City area, offering as fine cityscape views as can be found... and you wanna talk about "people and not golfers"... Dan Jenkins could write fine stories about the clientele there - hell until he moved to Florida, OJ was a regular....

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Would you classify my comments as either A) image, B) marketing,  C) regurgitation, or D) all of the above?    

Contrary to your statement, and based on the little that I know you, I did actually try to appeal to what I thought were your interests.

If I missed the mark, I'll eat that book you sent.  

     

[THuckaby2]

Mike - methinks you might have book flambe' tonight.  Unless I miss the mark, jakab cares as much or more about the surroundings, the people and the overall ambiance than he does about the golf course.  I find absolutely nothing wrong with that and in fact, it is refreshing candor and honesty here.

And that being the case, as great as Pacific Dunes is - and as much sprituality as can be felt there (I agree with your words above completely) - it's not the place for him.  Too expensive, too many notch-seekers, too "accepted as the standard" by the in-crowd here, too "resort-ish,"
too rural.

To that end, I really think Rustic Canyon won't jazz him as much as Rancho Park would either... my post above was serious...

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

JakaB:

Put me down as one of those people who can't possibly explain why you should chose to visit one golf course over another.

You may be right. Maybe nobody here can. But, I can't help wonder: did you just come to that conclusion or were you of that mindset before creating the thread?

At the end of the day, golf architecture does have something to do with one's own taste and preferences. If you want to use GCA as a resource, I'd suggest you identify the person(s) who most closely share your perspective and listen to them.

Say, for instance, you are a Fazio fan. Why not ask someone like Lou Duran if a trip to Dallas (to see Dallas National) might be more fun than either Rustic Canyon or Pacific Dunes?

Time is short. Do what you most enjoy. You don't need validation from anyone here, but it would be nice to find a few people you trust and with whom you share golf architecture preferences.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Thankfully, it's not a voluminous book.  

In honor of John, perhaps I should put it in the stew pot with the potatoes and cabbage.  

[THuckaby2]

Tom;

Thankfully, it's not a voluminous book.  

In honor of John, perhaps I should put it in the stew pot with the potatoes and cabbage.  

That would work for this, for sure.  

But I recommend Moo Shu Book, having once consumed something similar to such after a stupid college hoops prognostication.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Hmm...I do have a yen for Chinese..  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Barny, I shared some of those moments with Mike last year. he is so on the money about everything, including the sheep ranch. Pacific Dunes does allow one to really become one with the course and play a game that one seldom if ever finds in Lafayette, Louisiana. Yet much of it was doing so with great people like Mike, Geoffrey, Tom, David M, Lou, Bill and many  of the guys on here. I am sure we will have nothing but the best experiences at Rustic as well, just like Barona and Pasa. I say go to both young man. I did the drive there and back twice from SF and it is a dream if you have the time. I did the Portland and drive down too and it is nice but not as cool as the Redwoods and coast of Northern Cal.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I have never understood the ocean free pass...I prefer city-scape to ocean views everyday of the week.

WHAT? WHAT? WHATTTT?  Prefer city view to Ocean view.  Sacrilege!

[THuckaby2]

Mike - rest easy - lucky for you and your employer, but JakaB remains in a small minority in this sacrilege!

[RJ_Daley]

JakaB, that is just your affinity for asphalt.

[JakaB]

I'm decomputered for 24 hrs and so many questions..

Mike C,

What book did I send you...that must have been years ago.

Mike V,

Your course needs the ocean no more that Pinehurst #2 needs the pines.

Tim,

Funny you would pick Lou Duran and Dallas National...I would like that as I would be hard pressed to think of one course commentary of Louis that I could dispute....with the possible exception of his BM on BM.

Huck,

Last night I checked into a cheap motel in an attempt to be with the people...it can have its downsides.

RJ,

I do love the cut of an interstate through a virgin hillside.

[DMoriarty]

JakaB,

I dont know what you are looking for, but I will assume that what you mean by "architecture and the X-factor" is that vague and amorphous determination of which is the "better course."   Almost all (present company included) would agree that PD is the better course.

Doak and others have said something like, 'you need a world class site to design a world class golf course.'   Setting aside whether RC is "world class" (as near as I can tell, PD definitely is), PD's site is superior to RC's.   For one thing, PD has natural dunes and they are not only spectacular in appearance, but also integral to the golf.  For another thing,  PD's terrain is more varied than RC's.  And, PD might have more interesting wind more often.

So, most definitely go to PD if you are looking for the better course.  Especially if this is your last trip West ever.  

That being said, RC is more obviously antithetical to what you and others sometimes profess to profess, and more likely to lead to cognitive dissonance and internal and external discord.  

Plus it is fun to play.  

[Barry N. Enema]

JakaB I have found the perfect website to help you with making your decision. Good luck with your quest!

Just click here JakaB

[Jeff Fortson]

JakaB,

You should play in the KPIII at Rustic to watch me not be able to "handle the pressure" again as I heard in whispers on the third hole of Pajaro.  That should be plenty of reason to push your choice in the direction of Rustic.  I will probably chop this year too as I have not played golf in two months and I am hours away from my wife giving birth to our first child.  I'm sure my game will be in a sorry state, which is perfect ego-boost food for all of you "I beat the pro" set.

Your chances will be even higher if you can find some 20 compression balatas to play with again too.

See you at Rustic.


Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

PD is a virtual treatise on how a talented architect builds a course that's fun, playable for all levels, immensely challenging, inspiring, thought-provoking, and original while maintaining a rugged, natural, earthy feel and tone.

I felt that Pacific Dunes was not fun for all levels of golfers,that it's appeal was narrower, that it was substantially more challenging then say, Bandon Dunes, and that these challenging demands seperated Pacific Dunes from Bandon Dunes and made Pacific Dunes more of a Championship Course.

I'm not saying that Bandon Dunes was easy, but in comparison I thought its margins of error were greater.

While you're out there, think about each hole in different types of wind conditions, and imagine the variability.  Look at the generous avenues of play on each hole and see how a single bunker or grumply area of fairway can dramatically change playing options.

I don't see the GENEROUS avenues of play at Pacific Dunes, when compared to Bandon Dunes, which I believe is far more generous

Feel the power of nature and don't fight it...work with it.  Use your putter from 65 yards as I did on the 7th, or punch a 4-iron from 85 as I managed on the 4th.  Going the other way, launch your ball high and let the winds carry it to places you never dreamed.  Become one with the course and let yourself be transcended.  

Ok..I'm going off now, but you wanted spirituality, didn't you John??

Bandon is a very, very good course, but sitting next to a masterpiece it loses a little.  The difference is in the details, particularly around the greens.  It's much better than Pinehurst #7, however.

I would disagree. Each course has its own distinct appeal.
From my perspective, I think my choice on which course I would prefer to play on any given day would be based on my evaluation of my ability to execute as determined on the practice tee.
The fairways at Bandon Dunes seemed, effectively, much wider to me.

gotta run...trust me on this one.

Don't trust him on this one, go see for yourself and take your own taste test.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike is right!

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