We Ko Pa Saguaro's #4 vs Talking Stick O'odham's #2

[Ken Fry]

Over the years there's been numerous discussions about the 2nd hole at the North Course (O'odham) at Talking Stick in Scottsdale and the strategy of the design.  The hole is a long par 5 with O.B. down the entire left side.  The fairway is very wide and flat and the green site is set hard against the O.B. with two bunkers protecting the right side of the green.  At some point the player will need to take on the O.B. line on either the tee shot and/or 2nd shot and/or 3rd shot.  It's a great strategic design.


Up the road and to the northwest is We Ko Pa.  The Coore and Crenshaw Saguaro course has a hole with the same design philosophy, the 4th hole.  The difference is the elevation change and dramatic canted fairway not found at Talking Stick.  The tee shot is semi blind over or around a centerline bunker.  The 2nd shot presents a decision to hug the left side near a bunker or the left edge of the fairway for the best approach into the green or play safely down into a deep valley leaving a blind, uphill shot at an awkward angle directly toward the desert.  There's a lot to consider on each shot to reach the green safely.


Talking Stick's version of this Hoylake philosophy gets all the love and attention yet the We Ko Pa version is never mentioned.  Is it because the Talking Stick version is so simple visually?


Ken

[Ben Sims]

Ken,


Personally I don’t find the holes to be as conceptually similar as you. That said, I will say that that due to lack of topography and simplicity of concept, #2 at Talking Stick is very easy to understand. I think the North Course  represents a clear opportunity for someone that is interested in the 101 level of golf design to look at it and understand it. Even though it’s been 12 years since I saw it, I refer back to it often.


There’s a hole there, #5 I think, called “left is right”. It represents the most basic concept of what a relatively small centerline hazard can do for a hole, particularly when it’s placed at a crest. #9 at Old Barnwell and #14 at Ballyneal are also a good examples of this, among many others. TSN is pretty cool that way.

[Ken Fry]

Thanks Ben.  There's a lot to study and like on the North Course at Talking Stick.  I really enjoy how much the team got out of such a flat site.
I recently played at Saguaro and I found the similarities between the holes I described striking.  The risk of keeping you ball down the left side at Saguaro is evident on every shot but there's a strong reward for an approach to the green attacking down the length of the green vs diagonal.  I watch one of my playing partners hit from the valley and get a bit greedy, land on the left side of the green and roll into the desert, just missing the greenside bunker.
I really like #4 at Saguaro for the challenge each shot presents and I'm surprised it doesn't get much love for all the strategy presented on a par 5.
Ken