Cost of a consulting architect. Hooper GC considering one

[Peter Bowman]

Great news! The Hooper Greens Committee has taken my advice to consider hiring a consulting architect before moving forward with trap removals and renovations, in addition to creating new sets of tees to add a little more variety—and hopefully VALUE—for the golfers.


We’re very unclear the range of costs for such service. Clearly hiring Hanse will cost more than a lesser known expert.


9 holes. About 27 trap renos, remove 2 non original and ugly traps on 9 fairway.


We assume hiring the likes of Hanse, etc, will cost more than a lesser known consultant.


I’m hoping this group can provide some insights on what to expect. 


Also I’d like to known Jeff Brauer for providing me a helpful resource: “Designs on a Better Golf Course.”

[mark chalfant]

Jeffrey Stein is excellent. He has a strong appreciation and knowledge of classic masters including Stiles and Van Kleek. He has strong communication skills and he is easy to work with.


Ian Andrew and Tyler Rae are both also excellent golf course architects who do impeccable historic research.

[Tom_Doak]

Do you need an architect for one day or on an ongoing basis?


Most would charge differently depending on the answer.


My daily fee is very high, but I figure I'm giving a lot of the answers you need in the first day, and I'm not trying to convince you that I need to come back five times.  Those who are less busy might take the opposite approach.

[Peter Bowman]

Jeffrey Stein is excellent. He has a strong appreciation and knowledge of classic masters including Stiles and Van Kleek. He has strong communication skills and he is easy to work with.


Tyler Rae is also excellent!

Thanks for the names. I met Tyler Rae around 2018 when he visited Hooper on a cold spring (or fall?) day.  He drove out after a biz trip to Boston.  Really nice dude.

[Peter Bowman]

Do you need an architect for one day or on an ongoing basis?


Most would charge differently depending on the answer.


My daily fee is very high, but I figure I'm giving a lot of the answers you need in the first day, and I'm not trying to convince you that I need to come back five times.  Those who are less busy might take the opposite approach.

Tom,


We’re aware we don’t know what we don’t know, so it’s hard to answer that.  I don’t imagine we’d need more than a day for a site visit and a master plan for the construction company to follow


Hooper hired MAS construction to renovate the severely beaten traps on holes 3 and 4 last year.  The response is overwhelmingly positive. Some feel the new bunkers are out of sync with Stiles and van Kleek, which I can see. I’m sure MAS can do the bunker work according to architect plans. Current Greens Committee consensus seems to want to hire them again.


There is a fairway bunker on 5 (used to be 2in 1927) that now only punishes the short slicer and not the better golfer. They want to remove it altogether; I’m suggesting we relocate it further upstream to maintain a piece of the intended strategy behind them. There’s also debate about removing certain trees planted to give the false sense of safety to 6th green.  Other issues as well.


So I’m glad they’re open to considering a consultant before moving dirt and cutting trees.

[Mark_Fine]

Paul,
You are making a smart decision to hire an architect to assist with your project.  That said, make sure you hire one that has an interest in the history of your course and knows something about the original designers, Wayne Stiles and John Van Kleek.  If I recall correctly they did close to 100 courses in their career and Hooper is a great nine holer for sure.[/size]  [/color][/size]Also, you are going to need someone in for more than a day or two especially if you are going to have the architect work with the club to prepare a Master Plan.  A thoughtful well prepared plan can take in some situations months to put together.  If you are going to make significant alterations to your golf course, take the time to get it right.  Costs to prepare a Master Plan are all over the map. You get what you pay for.  Some architects will charge more for a plan and maybe less for overseeing construction or vice versa.  You won’t know what they charge till you ask.  Just pick one who you feel is passionate about your golf course and who will have the time to work with your committee (or decision makers) to prepare a proper plan. And also make sure the architect will be there as necessary during the actual construction field work.  Good luck with your project!

[Peter Bowman]

Thank you Mark. I hope to see the project happen.


Our challenge is we haven’t a remote idea what the project could or should cost, including the consultant (the smallest expense, I’m sure). My personal assumption is the neighborhood of $200k—a LARGE chunk of Hooper’s working capital.


It’s likely we will be limited by budget concerns among the other owners, particularly if a 1-year restoration is done v. a phased reno.


I know a few in the field who have strong love and interest for Hooper, who will be considered if funds can be made for the project at all.


I could use help justifying the expense if we can be shown with good reliability that the reno will actually boost revenues and satisfy the need for ROI.


Do such renovations *generally* increase revenues to meet and exceed the debt service?

[Mark_Fine]

Peter,
If you are spending $200K on consulting fees for a nine hole public golf course, someone is taking advantage of you.  Frankly the figure should be “well under” $100K including construction support. 


The current condition of the golf course will have a lot to do with how beneficial a restoration/renovation will be from a financial standpoint.  I am not vying for the project at all as I am booked solid but happy to connect you with the GM who managed our full renovation of Bethlehem GC, a public course in Pa.  It was a huge financial success for the city/local golf community.  He can tell you all about it and offer some insights that might be helpful.  You will be shocked how little our budget was and what we got accomplished for an 18 hole 7000 yard golf course.  It was an old Gordon design.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Congratulations.


Clients and friends have entirely different experiences working with architects and contractors.
Take recommendations carefully.


In today's market, your schedule and contractor would seem critical to the overall cost variance.
Be patient. Contractors are very busy and charge a large premium to work on your schedule not theirs.


One option would be to work with a consultant who can perform some of the shaping and may have some help to support construction. I'm assuming your crew is small and would only be able to help marginally.


Having a general idea of what you can afford will help with expectations of the committee and consultants.
The closer the consultants the better, assuming they are good.


Paying Tom for a day is great value assuming it will include how to ensure quality and desirable construction and design implementation.
cheers

[Peter Bowman]

Peter,
If you are spending $200K on consulting fees for a nine hole public golf course, someone is taking advantage of you.  Frankly the figure should be “well under” $100K including construction support. 


The current condition of the golf course will have a lot to do with how beneficial a restoration/renovation will be from a financial standpoint.  I am not vying for the project at all as I am booked solid but happy to connect you with the GM who managed our full renovation of Bethlehem GC, a public course in Pa.  It was a huge financial success for the city/local golf community.  He can tell you all about it and offer some insights that might be helpful.  You will be shocked how little our budget was and what we got accomplished for an 18 hole 7000 yard golf course.  It was an old Gordon design.

Hi Mark.  Thank you for your input and I’m sorry for the confusion.  I included the consulting fee in with the overall project costs. And again, that’s my inexperienced educated guess.


There seems to be a lot of ways to skin this cat.


The best plan IMO is the one that boosts Hooper’s profitability the most, assuming the renovation leads to higher greens and membership fees, more rounds played and return play.