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JMEvensky

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2019, 04:28:35 PM »



Tom D - you'd know better than me (says Captain Obvious) but I'm surprised you think your courses wouldn't have gained traction if golf was always about the card & pencil. From the outside looking in, it seems to me that the 'card & pencil set' has flocked to your courses from day one -- even if they then ripped up their cards and/or used the erasers!




I thought the same thing. In my experience, good players like a challenge.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2019, 05:19:31 PM »
I just had a listen, and I can understand the varying viewpoints given the wide array of talking points and discussion....

Although the biggest WTF moment was Andy trying to compare lettuce to golf course architecture...  ;D








Conley Hurst

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2019, 11:42:17 PM »
Personally, I was a little surprised at many things Ran said. I teach, and so the golfers I teach often care quite a bit about scoring, for example. They have goals and playing better is one of the many ways they enjoy the game of golf. So his comments, Ran's comments, on keeping score or entering your scores into GHIN struck me as odd, and mildly off-putting. Cool if it works for him. Completely. No problem at all here with how HE chooses to play golf, or enjoy golf. But shouldn't we stop shy of telling others how to enjoy golf? Others enjoy betting with their buddies. Keeping score. Improving. Practicing.


I just listened to this podcast on my evening run. As much as I agreed with Ran on many of his points (particularly the aspects of the old school UK clubs that ought to be embraced more in the US), I too came away somewhat irked by his dismissive attitude toward the kind of golfers that Erik describes above.


In my junior and college golf days, I played tons of tournaments, spent hours a day on the range, and never played a hole without keeping score. I loved golf architecture and frequently perused GCA.com, but I had not been exposed to the type of golf regularly touted on this site until my year at Oxford. The UK opened my eyes to a new side of the game: quirky links courses, foursomes, 2.5 hour rounds, dogs, etc. I quickly fell back in love.


Though I am a more well-rounded golfer for my time at Oxford, I still remember fondly the days when my enjoyment of the game was tied primarily to my quest to get better. There's something unbelievably satisfying about spending long hours on the practice tee, taking it to a difficult golf course, and performing well under pressure. In fact, for many people in the golf world, this endless grind to become better is the essence of what makes golf fun. 

Though we have never met, I have tremendous respect for Ran by virtue of his work on this site. He probably did not mean any ill-will toward the "grinders" of the world, and I think he made clear that he was expressing his perspective on what makes the game fun. But his dismissiveness did echo a narrative that I frequently encounter on this site: that the game of golf is cleanly bifurcated between the Doak-loving, match-play-oriented purists and the Fazio-loving, metal-play-oriented cart-ballers.


The reality is that I (along with, I assume, many others) am sometimes pulled in both directions. Most of my golfing day-dreams are filled with images of a crisp autumn morning at Rye, a casual match with a few friends, no scorecard in sight. But occasionally I'll dream of the 18th green at your run-of-the-mill tournament course, long iron in hand, par needed to secure a top 5 finish.


In fact, probably the most fun round of my life came last summer in the first round of the Boyd Quaich college tournament at the Old Course. It was the first time I had ever set foot on TOC. Of course, I had read so much about the course that I knew every hole by rote. Fortunately, I played well and ended up with level par 72. Having never been there, I relied heavily on my yardage guide to scout out the hidden bunkers scattered about the fairways and devise the ideal angle to get at certain pins. I had never spent so much brainpower on a golf course in my life. But that was the fun of it. Plotting my way around such an ingenious course was the thrill of a lifetime.


Anyway...my point is that the purist/grinder divide is not as wide as we tend to think. And if we purists really want to win the war of ideas, we ought not be so dismissive of the other side. It just serves to confirm that we're all a bunch of elitist snobs. I'll shut up now.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 11:44:31 PM by Conley Hurst »

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2019, 05:55:37 AM »

Though we have never met, I have tremendous respect for Ran by virtue of his work on this site. He probably did not mean any ill-will toward the "grinders" of the world, and I think he made clear that he was expressing his perspective on what makes the game fun. But his dismissiveness did echo a narrative that I frequently encounter on this site: that the game of golf is cleanly bifurcated between the Doak-loving, match-play-oriented purists and the Fazio-loving, metal-play-oriented cart-ballers.


I have only played with Ran a few times, but I think he did mean it!!


It took a long time to convert my son to walking from the dreaded cart ball, and it finally worked. He is now a walker first, but I know he will cheat and take a cart at times with his friends. He sent me a text asking about a pair of golf shoes for our upcoming trip to Ireland, and Mr Moore from Maine sent me a text at roughly the same time saying that he was looking at aerials of Ballybunion !! Clearly, I have more work to do as a father as Mr Moore is the only one of our group that is a real "Tournament Golfer".


I play at Yale where carts are clearly needed for many players, especially older alumni back visiting. That said, my favorite days at Yale are "no carts today" after a big rain or early in the season.


I have been a frequent host at Yale, and I one time hosted two guys with Geoff Childs from the old Bomb Squad Golf, which seems to have a similar profile to No Laying Up. They were perfectly nice guys, but sorry, they were boring to play with!!


I know for a fact that I play better when I am focused, have a routine, don't talk - basically play like a pro. I get it, there is Tournament Golf and then Everything Else. That said, it really does not matter if I shoot 88 versus 84 during a casual match. I embrace my Everything Else golfing ability.


I had aspirations at one point in time to play the Connecticut Amateur, 6 HCP to enter, and then you probably have to break 80 at Yale from the back to qualify. I never did it, as I just prefer Everything Else golf, or I simply suck!!


To sum up, my oldest son is probably a No Laying Up kind of guy, I am going to Ireland with him and two GCA Goobers, and the GCA Goobers have full permission to give him crap if he is grinding over a putt for Bogey on the 12th hole at Ballybunion:




#AeternusUmbra - https://about.me/MichaelWilliamSweeney/
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Joe Hancock

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2019, 07:35:05 AM »
It must be there are few of us who, at an earlier age, played for score and tried some level of competitive golf...and enjoyed it. Then, we chose to relax about our golf and just hit the ball in a less serious mindset....and enjoyed it. And, us same golfers rediscovered the joys of winning a match, so small wagers are placed on the first tee, and we put forth our best effort, even if it isn’t as well-honed as the “us” of the past.....yep, still enjoying it.


The game evolves, we evolve. Go ahead and enjoy it.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2019, 09:19:54 AM »
I just listened to this podcast on my evening run. As much as I agreed with Ran on many of his points (particularly the aspects of the old school UK clubs that ought to be embraced more in the US), I too came away somewhat irked by his dismissive attitude toward the kind of golfers that Erik describes above.
I won't quote all of it but your post almost entirely captures what I was trying to say. Ran, IMO, was dismissive and judgmental of the other golfers.

Though I am a more well-rounded golfer for my time at Oxford, I still remember fondly the days when my enjoyment of the game was tied primarily to my quest to get better. There's something unbelievably satisfying about spending long hours on the practice tee, taking it to a difficult golf course, and performing well under pressure. In fact, for many people in the golf world, this endless grind to become better is the essence of what makes golf fun.
I agree with this as well.

I think, too, without getting too far into it (I know there's a "best handicap to appreciate golf course architecture" thread going on), that better play allows a golfer to appreciate the architecture more. I don't think it's entirely out of line to say that a 30-handicapper looks at a golf course differently than a scratch golfer. Part of the joy I find in golf is understanding the architecture, understanding what the GCA wants me to do, the shot it wants me to hit, or dares me to hit, or something… and then having the ability to pull it off. Part of golf course architecture is "man against the course," and really, it's man (player) against man (the architect). If you're not good enough to make that a fair fight, then I don't think golf would be quite as enjoyable. Bogeys are easy (relatively…) - it's the quest for par (from appropriate tees) that enlivens golf for many.

Yes, there are those who can appreciate a golf course simply from a visual form, or as an art form. But golf is competitive too - against yourself, against the architect, against others. And just like hockey players might dream of playing at Madison Square Garden and baseball players might dream of playing at Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park, golfers often dream of playing at the famous golf courses. For those not too into GCA, that might just be PGA Tour courses… but for those into GCA, that includes the North Berwicks of the world (I remember every shot I hit there too), the Sweetens Coves, the Doaks, etc.

Though we have never met, I have tremendous respect for Ran by virtue of his work on this site. He probably did not mean any ill-will toward the "grinders" of the world, and I think he made clear that he was expressing his perspective on what makes the game fun. But his dismissiveness did echo a narrative that I frequently encounter on this site: that the game of golf is cleanly bifurcated between the Doak-loving, match-play-oriented purists and the Fazio-loving, metal-play-oriented cart-ballers.
I agree here too.

In fact, probably the most fun round of my life came last summer in the first round of the Boyd Quaich college tournament at the Old Course. It was the first time I had ever set foot on TOC. Of course, I had read so much about the course that I knew every hole by rote. Fortunately, I played well and ended up with level par 72. Having never been there, I relied heavily on my yardage guide to scout out the hidden bunkers scattered about the fairways and devise the ideal angle to get at certain pins. I had never spent so much brainpower on a golf course in my life. But that was the fun of it. Plotting my way around such an ingenious course was the thrill of a lifetime.
This reminds me of the first time I played TOC. I knew every hole, but I loved playing it "the right way." It took three or four holes before my caddie began to understand that I wasn't going to try to fly everything to the green. From 160 out, I might chip an 8-iron 110 and let it roll 50 yards… and I just had to know where to land it to avoid bunkers and have the ground feed the ball in the right way. I still remember the 6-iron I hit on the Road Hole from 180… a great 6-iron yardage for me, except it was, like most of my shots that day, about 100 yards in the air and 80 on the ground. Didn't get more than 25 feet in the air, I feel like, and rolled up to 15 feet (made the putt). The gruff caddies gave me props for the huge swooping 4-iron I played into the 11th, carving it out well left to get around Strath. That and the shot on the 17th are my lasting memories of the day. I know what score I shot that day, and I can replay every shot in my mind. My ability to play good golf enhanced my appreciation for the golf course.

Anyway...my point is that the purist/grinder divide is not as wide as we tend to think. And if we purists really want to win the war of ideas, we ought not be so dismissive of the other side. It just serves to confirm that we're all a bunch of elitist snobs. I'll shut up now.
Ditto.

To sum up, my oldest son is probably a No Laying Up kind of guy, I am going to Ireland with him and two GCA Goobers, and the GCA Goobers have full permission to give him crap if he is grinding over a putt for Bogey on the 12th hole at Ballybunion:

I don't think the "NLU kind of guys" are all that far apart from the "GCA kind of guys."

Watch the NLU videos. They enjoy walking ("push cart mafia"), they enjoy good architecture and hidden gems, they enjoy having fun, they enjoy competing, they enjoy gambling a bit, etc. They enjoy golf in slightly different ways. Perhaps even less "snooty" ways. Jacksonville Beach, their local oft-played course, is likely not an architectural gem… but they have FUN playing GOLF all the same.

It'd be a shame to think that the "NLU kind of guys" and the "GCA kind of guys" are far apart. I think that they're a lot closer together.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

jeffwarne

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2019, 09:41:42 AM »
It must be there are few of us who, at an earlier age, played for score and tried some level of competitive golf...and enjoyed it. Then, we chose to relax about our golf and just hit the ball in a less serious mindset....and enjoyed it. And, us same golfers rediscovered the joys of winning a match, so small wagers are placed on the first tee, and we put forth our best effort, even if it isn’t as well-honed as the “us” of the past.....yep, still enjoying it.



It often comes down to a war between those who were picked first in gym class... and those who weren't.
It shouldn't-
big world, plenty of courses and styles to enjoy but it is important to know which world you've entered.
Not real different than the guys excluded from Hogan and Venturi's games because they didn't work the ball around the course as Hogan felt they should.


We all go through phases of golf in our life, and many were wanna be grinder/improvers once upon a time. It's not up to us to decide when that period is over for others, BUT, Ran and others simply enjoy like minded company and may simply choose their games and venues accordingly.
 As a golf pro wearing many hats I have to slip in and out of many modes with many different types, but for those of with limited time to enjoy golf as a pleasant pursuitersion from what we ordinarily do, I completely get what Ran is saying-and as I said it was a bit out of context in a short interview, and a small sampling of his extensive body of work.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 08:56:07 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brian Finn

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2019, 10:17:15 AM »
I don't think the "NLU kind of guys" are all that far apart from the "GCA kind of guys."

Watch the NLU videos. They enjoy walking ("push cart mafia"), they enjoy good architecture and hidden gems, they enjoy having fun, they enjoy competing, they enjoy gambling a bit, etc. They enjoy golf in slightly different ways. Perhaps even less "snooty" ways. Jacksonville Beach, their local oft-played course, is likely not an architectural gem… but they have FUN playing GOLF all the same.

It'd be a shame to think that the "NLU kind of guys" and the "GCA kind of guys" are far apart. I think that they're a lot closer together.

I agree with these sentiments.  The GCA/NLU Venn Diagram has a large overlap.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2019, 10:24:39 AM »
To paraphrase a recent text from good friend. It's Ballyneal Was vs Ballyneal Is.

Bill Raffo

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2019, 12:14:34 PM »
I think Ran's non-reaction to "all of this," says everything about how silly "all of this", actually is.
Imagine that's how Jason Day felt when he was attacked for going to Disney.
Or Brandel felt when he was attacked for his driving range divot pattern.
Or how that golf writer felt when he dismissed the whole NLU operation as "twitter idiots."

Daryl David

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2019, 01:16:16 PM »
To paraphrase a recent text from good friend. It's Ballyneal Was vs Ballyneal Is.


+1
Quote of the thread so far.

Steve Kline

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2019, 01:59:25 PM »

Watch the NLU videos. They enjoy walking ("push cart mafia"), they enjoy good architecture and hidden gems, they enjoy having fun, they enjoy competing, they enjoy gambling a bit, etc. They enjoy golf in slightly different ways. Perhaps even less "snooty" ways. Jacksonville Beach, their local oft-played course, is likely not an architectural gem… but they have FUN playing GOLF all the same.

It'd be a shame to think that the "NLU kind of guys" and the "GCA kind of guys" are far apart. I think that they're a lot closer together.



They also love Winter Park. They love all the courses everyone here does in Scotland and Australia, particularly the off the beaten path ones. They did a quick video on Lofoten that had me dying to play there. The one who played it played it with two non-golfer friends (he convinced them because of the scenery and uniqueness) - all of them in hiking boots. They do a series called Strapped where they send two of them to a random area for three days with a maximum of $500 to spend on golf, lodging, food, etc with only two sleeves of balls I think. And, they clearly like to gamble on the course more than little bit. They are far more like what most on GCA claim they want golfers to be than many here seem to realize. They just seem to be younger. One of them is definitely more the card-and-pencil type (once a competitive golfer and carries a 1 handicap) and another is probably an 18 and touts his mental missing of short putts to avoid dealing with his yips.


Whether they are your style or not, they get it when it comes to golf.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 02:01:50 PM by Steve Kline »

BHoover

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2019, 02:32:07 PM »
I’ve heard this phrase a lot recently, but I’m still not entirely sure what it means (granted, I don’t pretend to be as enlightened as some) — what does it mean to “get it” when it comes to golf? What is the “it” that one is supposed to get?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2019, 02:42:26 PM »
I’ve heard this phrase a lot recently, but I’m still not entirely sure what it means (granted, I don’t pretend to be as enlightened as some) — what does it mean to “get it” when it comes to golf? What is the “it” that one is supposed to get?


See Jacobellis v. Ohio, 378 US 184 (1964).
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Eric Smith

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2019, 02:44:12 PM »
I’ve heard this phrase a lot recently...What is the “it” that one is supposed to get?


S H * *  H I L L S

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2019, 02:50:49 PM »
For me, "it" is found in that small difference between how much you love your children and your wife. "It" will never let you go.

Mike Hendren

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2019, 02:59:16 PM »
For me, "it" is found in that small difference between how much you love your children and your wife. "It" will never let you go.

You've moved on from your Hillbilly Tour days.  I "get it" but it hurts nonetheless.  I keep thinking of that time we "took a poke at Doak." 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

James Brown

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2019, 11:12:23 PM »
I can hit to there in less shots than you.  That’s the essence of golf. 

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2023, 07:45:43 PM »
Public service announcement -


Our Fearless Leader Ran was recently the special guest of another podcast - this time focussing on Australian golf.


A wonderful chat touching on Barnbougle, Royal Melbourne, Newcastle, New South Wales, Cape Wickham, and many other Australian courses. Along with other issues in the broader golf world.


Link here - https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/dt4TpSU38Ab


Thanks again to Ran for his time and wise words. It was an uplifting experience chatting with him.
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

MCirba

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2023, 09:27:05 PM »
Someone tell me what's wrong with Ballyneal Is?


Or what was better about Ballyneal Was?


Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 11:20:22 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

William_G

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2023, 10:27:36 PM »
Public service announcement -



thank you
It's all about the golf!

Brent Carlson

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2023, 11:32:34 PM »
Public service announcement -


Our Fearless Leader Ran was recently the special guest of another podcast - this time focussing on Australian golf.


A wonderful chat touching on Barnbougle, Royal Melbourne, Newcastle, New South Wales, Cape Wickham, and many other Australian courses. Along with other issues in the broader golf world.


Link here - https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/dt4TpSU38Ab


Thanks again to Ran for his time and wise words. It was an uplifting experience chatting with him.


Was excellent, thanks.  I need to get down there.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2023, 12:45:25 PM »
Someone tell me what's wrong with Ballyneal Is?


Or what was better about Ballyneal Was?


Thanks.


The original quote was pre-covid. Ballyneal is Back.

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Our Fearless Leader on The Fried Egg Podcast
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2023, 08:19:33 PM »


The original quote was pre-covid. Ballyneal is Back.


Except for a recent hail storm that messed with my 4th of July plans.

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